Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Nasr]

You have to remember, Trump would also like to get some deals signed. The Indians are getting 36 Rafales starting this year, so 18 PAF F-16 Block 70s won't change the balance of power, but keep it balanced, and may even incentivize the Indians to buy the Super Hornet. The Indians don't seem to be committing to any US products for their major Air force Fighter or Strike platform tenders. Therefore the US shoudl look at who is willing to buy their products.

18 Block 70s and just the SABR radars and associated avionics upgrades would be enough to give the PAF modern capabilities to match IAF acquisitions for the foreseeable future. 18 Block 70, permission to buy 42 Late model low-flight hour F-16s from other operators, and the aforementioned upgrades, along with Aim-120c7 and Aim-9X-II would be enough for the PAF. Then we would have 8 full f-16 Squadrons. Price tag would be somewhere in the neighborhood of $6-9 Billion. A steady increase in trade could cover some of this acquisition, and it is a large enough deal that it may incentivize the Trump and the US to go through with it, especially if it gets Pakistan to buy American and not Chinese.

All that ... and one bill passed through US Congress, the house of cards come crashing down. Just look at Turkey frantically buying up spares to increase their stockpile. Zionist-America has Turkey by the balls. Turkey's entire Air Force is all American fighters, it couldn't withstand U.S embargo on spare parts even if it tried it's hardest! The biggest advantage Pakistan has over America is it's drastically reducing dependency on American military hardware. In particular, it's Air Force. What Pakistan needs to do (and is now doing) is to build a pool of experts (Pakistanis) which would allow Pakistan to "truly absorb" technology transfers. As it's nucleus of experts increase, so would the industry and relative R&D would expand. Presently Pakistan lacks in knowledge base, hence has little no capacity to establish and expand industry, in particular, the military aviation. Why this is critical? Well just look at the hapless state of india, which supposedly has the knowledge base, the industry base and the money. Yet it has consistently and miserably failed to make any advances by itself.

Pakistan must build it's economy, must cultivate a harmonious education system and start churning out graduates who have the knowledge base to build it's industries, RESPONSIBLY!!! When Pakistan does do this, it will have the necessary resources, the critical industry technology and formidable allies to propel it to the level of South Korea or Japan. We just need to believe in our ability to do so. And if we keep sticking to the mentality of getting this many F-16s or that Block of Vipers or some AH-1 Zulus. Then I'm afraid that we would end up with the same shit that India finds itself in today.

Pakistan Air Force has cautiously and carefully mitigated it's modernization progress. Knowing fully well, that without the knowledge base, it cannot possibly rid itself of dependency on Western technology.

 

[TsAr]

I highly doubt that F-16 would even be discussed. Only thing we can hope for is to get are Cobras's......

 

[denel]

I highly doubt that F-16 would even be discussed. Only thing we can hope for is to get are Cobras's......

all depends; IK is a strong personality which TIT's weakness. Lets see. I do suspect there will be a quid pro quo

 

[TheTallGuy]

where is this 18 x Block 72 figure came? I thought it was 36 x F-16C/D Block 72 (24 x C and 12 x D) and upgrade of 18 x F-16C/D Block 52+ to Viper Configuration. plus possible but very much needed 13 x MLU upgrades of Ex-RJAF F-16s we have.

Importantly PAF would want AIM-120D...this will fit like a glove with ERIEYE ER

 

[Army research]

where is this 18 x Block 72 figure came? I thought it was 36 x F-16C/D Block 72 (24 x C and 12 x D) and upgrade of 18 x F-16C/D Block 52+ to Viper Configuration. plus possible but very much needed 13 x MLU upgrades of Ex-RJAF F-16s we have.

Importantly PAF would want AIM-120D...this will fit like a glove with ERIEYE ER

AIM120D and 9X or nothing should be the deal , the link 16 120D with those flying Swedish sorcerers will be a force to reckon

 

[Trailer23]

I thought it was 36 x F-16C/D Block 72 (24 x C and 12 x D) and upgrade of 18 x F-16C/D Block 52+ to Viper Configuration.

@TheTallGuy - you have become somewhat of a nuisance (compliment), as whatever you post seems like you know more than you show.

Its almost as if you're masquerading as a Car Dealer...

In all honesty, I hope your above post turns out to be accurate.

On another note, a number of Nations (Bahrain/Morocco/Bulgaria) have placed an order for the F-16 Block 70/72.

How long before the US offers this...F-21 to other nations, if India doesn't bite on their offer?

And does anyone know the difference in price tag between the new F-16 & F-21...?

 

[mingle]

where is this 18 x Block 72 figure came? I thought it was 36 x F-16C/D Block 72 (24 x C and 12 x D) and upgrade of 18 x F-16C/D Block 52+ to Viper Configuration. plus possible but very much needed 13 x MLU upgrades of Ex-RJAF F-16s we have.

Importantly PAF would want AIM-120D...this will fit like a glove with ERIEYE ER

Blk 52 requirements during Mush Era was 54 to 72 I think if there is chance PAF will go another 36 blk 72 along 18 52s to 72 standards I agree with U don't forget used F16s from Belgium and Jordan that would be Fun. Totally agree with U

 

[monitor]

Upgrading the Block 70 is too expensive as it currently stands. Just look at the values of the deals that have been announced already. Also, given that we only recently upgraded the Block 15s through the MLU and our Block 52s are not quite that old, its unlikely we will see them upgraded again anytime soon (might not even upgrade the block 15s, aside from incremental software updates, beyond the current level as they are already 30+ years old).
Another factor is giving Pakistan access to US AESA radars when Indians dont have the Rafale fielded yet in numbers (given their geopolitical tilt) they want to keep India stronger than Pakistan when it comes to cutting edge weapons.

Upgrading is not too expensive it's coming within the range between 35-40 million dollar per aircraft if we consider recent contract of upgrading. But newly build block 70 is too expensive 100+ million dollar.

 

[mingle]

Upgrading is not too expensive it's coming within the range between 35-40 million dollar per aircraft if we consider recent contract of upgrading. But newly build block 70 is too expensive 100+ million dollar.

Seeing Trump administration attitude they will force Pak buy new jetts if Pak wants used one and upgrade beacuse LM had more profit in new planes economics

 

[GriffinsRule]

People here should remember the saying in Urdu, khiyal-e-Palao maat pakao.
Given the AIM-120D has only been exported to a handful of countries (UK and Australia) and not even to the countries that are buying new or upgrading F-16s to Block 70. At best, and that is already a stretch, we might get the updates to go from C5 to C7 version of the AMRAAM.
Besides, Pakistan does not have the ancillary assets or platforms to truly take advantage of all AIM-120D capabilities, such as satellite assisted navigation, two-way datalink or other networked targeting capabilities.

 

[Army research]

People here should remember the saying in Urdu, khiyal-e-Palao maat pakao.
Given the AIM-120D has only been exported to a handful of countries (UK and Australia) and not even to the countries that are buying new or upgrading F-16s to Block 70. At best, and that is already a stretch, we might get the updates to go from C5 to C7 version of the AMRAAM.
Besides, Pakistan does not have the ancillary assets or platforms to truly take advantage of all AIM-120D capabilities, such as satellite assisted navigation, two-way datalink or other networked targeting capabilities.

We have link 16 data link, baidu access , and networked eryeie

 

[Flight of falcon]

What more proof we need that there will be some serious discussions about changing strategic balance in the region. From the Whitehouse press release:

"President Trump and PM Imran will discuss a range of issues, including counterterrorism, defense, energy and trade, with the goal of creating the conditions for a peaceful South Asia and an enduring partnership between our two countries," the statement added.

 

[Keysersoze]

What more proof we need that there will be some serious discussions about changing strategic balance in the region. From the Whitehouse press release:

"President Trump and PM Imran will discuss a range of issues, including counterterrorism, defense, energy and trade, with the goal of creating the conditions for a peaceful South Asia and an enduring partnership between our two countries," the statement added.

Trump is a complete narcissist. You need to kiss his arse to get anywhere. A more stable leader would need subtle political nuance. But kiss his arse. Tell him what he wants to hear ,like he is a great leader and you'll get what you want.

 

[FuturePAF]

Utter stupidity

Actually it might work. Maybe calling up Ivana before the meeting and following up afterwards through the Trump Years may keep a valuable back channel open. If Trump knows IK is a lady's man, it may boost his image as a Man's man.

Back to the F-16s. Going for the Aim-9X-II and Aim-120C7 along with a mix of new and used F-16s may allow Trump to show he's a deal maker, and for the west to show Pakistan is still keeping ties with the US. PAF needs to replace its fighter fleet, and buy 18 New F-16 Block 72 along with dozens of used F-16s will allow the PAF to gain a thin layer of the latest tech, along with an economical but modern fighter. A most overhaul can be done at a US facility to show money spent in the US, and even if half or even a third of the used F-16s get the AESA upgrade, decent use of tactics can be used to compensate, while saving money.

If we look at just the NATO nations with F-16s waiting for replacement by the F-35 we can see hundreds of F-16s potentially becoming available. If Pakistan is allowed to buy 60 flight worth used planes and upgrade them to level of the current PAF A/B MLU planes, they would still be better then flying the Mirages. When US-Turkish relations heal, the PAF could then go for the Turkish AESA upgrade on these F-16s and maintain the strategic balance in South Asia.

The alternative is telling the US we need to buy planes, you can sell them to us or we can buy them from somewhere else. either way we have our needs. We would like to buy from you, and put money where our mouth is in terms of the strategic alliance.

Btw; here are the numbers of those NATO F-16s that will soon be retiring IMHO (over the next 5-10 years)

30 Danish F-16 AM
60 Dutch F-16AM
46 Norwegian F-16A
43 Belgian F-16A
30 Portuguese F-16

That's a total of 209 European F-16s along with the hundreds of USAF and US Air National Guard F-16s that may soon be replaced by the F-35. 18 New F-16s and 60 used F-16s will allow the PAF to double the number of F-16 Squadrons to 9, and along with the 188 JF-17s making up 11 squadrons; create a robust 20 squadron fighter force; finally letting the PAF retire most of those Mirages and F-7PGs, potentially all by 2025.

 

[FuturePAF]

Yeah, gonna be difficult to buy off Trump. Even if we spend billions he will be happy and newsworthy but F-16 production line moved to South Carolina, it is heavily Republican and always has been, so no real concessions here.

I already thought of that... Who's one of the Senators from South Carolina. None other than Lindsay Graham. He's the Chairman of the Senate subcommittee on State, Foreign Operations, and related Programs. He's on the Foreign Relations committee. He's on the Senate Defense subcommittee.

Remember he's the one that suggest IK and Trump meetup. He says they have similar personalities. He could win over other Republicans to see Pakistan as a much needed ally once again. This can be coupled with Imran khan's Human Capital development push, can help win over Socially Conscious Democrats, and the aggregate could be enough to allow Pakistan to get a Free trade agreement as well as the much needed Defense products at reasonable prices.

And here is the realty, as Lindsay Graham sees it, in Afghanistan. He may be key to convince Trump to release the Cobras for Pakistan and give Pakistan hundreds of MRAPs from the excess defense articles in Afghan during the draw down, which Pakistan will need to safely patrol the border areas. He talks about the growing threat from Daesh, and knows Pakistan is a key nation to prevent them from regenerating again. A strong Pakistan with a healthy economy, that respects the interests of the major nations, should be seen as in the US national security interest. It will be similar to Jordan, a stable ally in a potentially dangerous neighborhood.

https://quwa.org/2017/02/19/pakistan-orders-40-maxxpro-mrap-vehicles-u-s/
https://www.dawn.com/news/1096837
https://www.dawn.com/news/1093755/us-military-may-hand-over-afghan-war-equipment-to-pakistan