Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Path-Finder]

Hi,

Really---did you need to write that comment---.

Saddam never believed that the US would attack before the 1st gulf war---.

Mullah Omar kept mixing up the word " Terrorist with Tourist---"---. Mullah Omar thought that the americans were calling OBL a "tourist" and asking him to kick out the tourist---. And then someone explained it to him what the real word was---by then it was too late---.

How would you factor Vietnam into this?

 

[MastanKhan]

How would you factor Vietnam into this?

Hi,

In relation to what---?

 

[Path-Finder]

Hi,

In relation to what---?

to your post!

 

[MastanKhan]

to your post!

Hi,

My post had no relation to vietnam---.

It was about a modern war---modern weapons---a totally changed war and a totally different game plan---a war against a muslim nation---by christian fundamentalists and christian Jihadis---.

I was trying to be polite---okay---.

Every clueless person brings in vietnam---having no idea about that war---.

So---what context did you bring in vietnam---.

 

[Path-Finder]

So---what context did you bring in vietnam---.

I wanted your views vis a vis Vietnam.

 

[MastanKhan]

I wanted your views vis a vis Vietnam.

Hi,

Vietnam was an old war---fought in a different time and under a different sets of rules of engagement imposed by the US congress on the US military---.

The US congress does not have those powers any more in how to dictate the US military to fight a war---& the US military would not accept those conditions or orders until and unless the field commander does not have the power to fight the war as he sees it fit to---.

Does that answer the question---.

 

[Armchair]

Hi,

Really---did you need to write that comment---.

Saddam never believed that the US would attack before the 1st gulf war---.

Mullah Omar kept mixing up the word " Terrorist with Tourist---"---. Mullah Omar thought that the americans were calling OBL a "tourist" and asking him to kick out the tourist---. And then someone explained it to him what the real word was---by then it was too late---.

MK it has been proved by hard documentation that Musharraf was discussing putting up this fear story, as a ploy. He had long sold out his nation and was pretending, in confidence with the "enemy" he was showed to be protecting Pakistan from.

I was there when they sold out Pakistanis, including elective representatives of local governments, without proof, without a court of law, they vanished. I remember it like yesterday. I will never forget and never forgive. They were sold to the Americans for between 5000 USD to 50000 USD. One of them was among the most impressive people I had ever met in my life, a Kashmiri who had nothing to do with the fight in Afghanistan, an elected member of the local government in Azad Kashmir. If he was an insurgent of any type, he was probably fighting Indians.

I have never met a man like him in all my travels all over the world. And that sellout government sold men like him to the US for a couple of thousand dollars. Imagine that.

And no, they could not send a nuclear power to the stone age. Pak was never Iraq. Never. A single thermonuclear warhead can put an entire US fleet out of commission. It was never a US option to take on Pakistan full on. Neither would China have allowed it. This was all a story. A story that was first discussed and planned with the US government and later put into execution as a way to pacify the Pak public.

 

[air marshal]

https://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16AM-Fighting-Falcon/1931

https://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16AM-Fighting-Falcon/1930

 

[air marshal]

http://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16BM-Fighting-Falcon/1935

 

[FuturePAF]

If the Khan-Trump meeting goes well, Do you think the PAF will try to acquire the F-16 Block 70? Another 18+18 option type of deal. It may also open up the US to allow the PAF to purchase more Used F-16s from other operators, as well as allow the PAF to upgrade the entire fleet to Block 70 standard and extend the air frames life to 12,000 hours. This would cover the high end comprehensively for the PAF until Project AZM is ready in 10-15 years.

This maybe the opportunity PAF was waiting for, considering Trump may want to get Billions of Dollars for US companies, so that he can say he is securing the thousands of jobs in key states.

If PAF could secure 36 New builts ($150 million per plane based on other nations sales) and 24 Used birds, and upgrades the entire Fleet to Block 70 Standard (upgrades looks to cost $40-50 million per plane), it would be enough for 8 full strength squadrons of the Latest 4th Generation Fighter in the World; 136 F-16s. More Aim-120C5 or C7 and the Aim-9X-II, along with more PGMS and more Sniper Targeting pods should earn the US at least a Billion more. A sale of equipment to set up a F-16 overhaul facility at Kamra would also earn more for Lockheed, and it would pay off for the PAF as it could do a MLU in Pakistan.

Some deal could be tied to increased Pakistani Exports to the US balanced with Pakistani Arms deals. Should the US deal not go through, The US will just have a larger trade imbalance with Pakistan, so it would be in the US interest to have the deal go through. The Indians don't look to be seriously considering the F-16, so the US should consider sales to Pakistan before Pakistan commits and spends its money on Chinese Fighters like the J-10CE.

 

[GriffinsRule]

If the Khan-Trump meeting goes well, Do you think the PAF will try to acquire the F-16 Block 70? Another 18+18 option type of deal. It may also open up the US to allow the PAF to purchase more Used F-16s from other operators, as well as allow the PAF to upgrade the entire fleet to Block 70 standard and extend the air frames life to 12,000 hours. This would cover the high end comprehensively for the PAF until Project AZM is ready in 10-15 years.

This maybe the opportunity PAF was waiting for, considering Trump may want to get Billions of Dollars for US companies, so that he can say he is securing the thousands of jobs in key states.

If PAF could secure 36 New builts and 24 Used birds, and upgrades the entire Fleet to Block 70 Standard, it would be enough for 8 full strength squadrons of the Latest 4th Generation Fighter in the World; 136 F-16s.

Some deal could be tied to increased Pakistani Exports to the US balanced with Pakistani Arms deals.

Upgrading the Block 70 is too expensive as it currently stands. Just look at the values of the deals that have been announced already. Also, given that we only recently upgraded the Block 15s through the MLU and our Block 52s are not quite that old, its unlikely we will see them upgraded again anytime soon (might not even upgrade the block 15s, aside from incremental software updates, beyond the current level as they are already 30+ years old).
Another factor is giving Pakistan access to US AESA radars when Indians dont have the Rafale fielded yet in numbers (given their geopolitical tilt) they want to keep India stronger than Pakistan when it comes to cutting edge weapons.

 

[FuturePAF]

Upgrading the Block 70 is too expensive as it currently stands. Just look at the values of the deals that have been announced already. Also, given that we only recently upgraded the Block 15s through the MLU and our Block 52s are not quite that old, its unlikely we will see them upgraded again anytime soon (might not even upgrade the block 15s, aside from incremental software updates, beyond the current level as they are already 30+ years old).
Another factor is giving Pakistan access to US AESA radars when Indians dont have the Rafale fielded yet in numbers (given their geopolitical tilt) they want to keep India stronger than Pakistan when it comes to cutting edge weapons.

You have to remember, Trump would also like to get some deals signed. The Indians are getting 36 Rafales starting this year, so 18 PAF F-16 Block 70s won't change the balance of power, but keep it balanced, and may even incentivize the Indians to buy the Super Hornet. The Indians don't seem to be committing to any US products for their major Air force Fighter or Strike platform tenders. Therefore the US shoudl look at who is willing to buy their products.

18 Block 70s and just the SABR radars and associated avionics upgrades would be enough to give the PAF modern capabilities to match IAF acquisitions for the foreseeable future. 18 Block 70, permission to buy 42 Late model low-flight hour F-16s from other operators, and the aforementioned upgrades, along with Aim-120c7 and Aim-9X-II would be enough for the PAF. Then we would have 8 full f-16 Squadrons. Price tag would be somewhere in the neighborhood of $6-9 Billion. A steady increase in trade could cover some of this acquisition, and it is a large enough deal that it may incentivize the Trump and the US to go through with it, especially if it gets Pakistan to buy American and not Chinese.

 

[Yasser76]

You have to remember, Trump would also like to get some deals signed. The Indians are getting 36 Rafales starting this year, so 18 PAF F-16 Block 70s won't change the balance of power, but keep it balanced, and may even incentivize the Indians to buy the Super Hornet. The Indians don't seem to be committing to any US products for their major Air force Fighter or Strike platform tenders. Therefore the US shoudl look at who is willing to buy their products.

18 Block 70s and just the SABR radars and associated avionics upgrades would be enough to give the PAF modern capabilities to match IAF acquisitions for the foreseeable future. 18 Block 70, permission to buy 42 Late model low-flight hour F-16s from other operators, and the aforementioned upgrades, along with Aim-120c7 and Aim-9X-II would be enough for the PAF. Then we would have 8 full f-16 Squadrons. Price tag would be somewhere in the neighborhood of $6-9 Billion. A steady increase in trade could cover some of this acquisition, and it is a large enough deal that it may incentivize the Trump and the US to go through with it, especially if it gets Pakistan to buy American and not Chinese.

Yeah, gonna be difficult to buy off Trump. Even if we spend billions he will be happy and newsworthy but F-16 production line moved to South Carolina, it is heavily Republican and always has been, so no real concessions here.

 

[araz]

You have to remember, Trump would also like to get some deals signed. The Indians are getting 36 Rafales starting this year, so 18 PAF F-16 Block 70s won't change the balance of power, but keep it balanced, and may even incentivize the Indians to buy the Super Hornet. The Indians don't seem to be committing to any US products for their major Air force Fighter or Strike platform tenders. Therefore the US shoudl look at who is willing to buy their products.

18 Block 70s and just the SABR radars and associated avionics upgrades would be enough to give the PAF modern capabilities to match IAF acquisitions for the foreseeable future. 18 Block 70, permission to buy 42 Late model low-flight hour F-16s from other operators, and the aforementioned upgrades, along with Aim-120c7 and Aim-9X-II would be enough for the PAF. Then we would have 8 full f-16 Squadrons. Price tag would be somewhere in the neighborhood of $6-9 Billion. A steady increase in trade could cover some of this acquisition, and it is a large enough deal that it may incentivize the Trump and the US to go through with it, especially if it gets Pakistan to buy American and not Chinese.

The US is now becoming too unreliable and the constant shifts and turns of its polity are a cause for concern. We dont want to put all our eggs in one basket only to find at the crunch time they are all blocked and prevented from use. We do have products which are in the ballpark with their sophistication so we now have choice as against the 80s and 2000s when we had very little or no choice. So the crunch question is do we really want to put our head in the noose again or do we bite the bullet and go for a newer platform? I think for capacity build up we can try and get some older platforms for MLU and run them giving us 2-3 squadrons but will the US allow us to do that is another question. For what it is worth I dont think we will ask for or will be granted Bl.70s or the US AESA radars.
A

 

[MIRauf]

If US is willing, PAF should go for 36 odd F-15X instead. I know that infrastructure is not there, but set it up as a new platform type, its a beast of of platform and except for F-22 and or perhaps F-35 nothing outclasses or matches it.