Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[MastanKhan]

For NATO YES, but NEVER for us.

When your enemy is right next door, its natural that majority of the battles will take place in WVR mode. For the IAF to implement their Cold Start Doctrine, the IAF will need to cross the border and engage the PAF in order to execute their war plans. They cannot just stay within their borders and try to take out our jets from stand off ranges. Our situation is similar to that of the IDAF, majority of their foes are right next door and that is why even to this day they effectively train their pilots for WVR battles.

PAF has had limited BVR capability for quite some time, they have been training in BVR engagements for almost a decade now. So they are not totally new to this concept, but obviously the introduction of the AIM120 and SD10B in large numbers is definitely a game changer for PAF. This allows them to accept the battle against the IAF from stand off ranges, that is something totally new that the IAF has to worry about. I fear that with the addition of all these BVR enabled planes, PAF will loose its edge in WVR arena a niche of which we are considered masters off. I certainly hope that PAF continues to train in both WVR and BVR A2A engagements.

Notorious,

Goodman----. You see-----IAF has screwed itself up by placing its primary air bases so close to pakistani border that at time of take off to intercept incoming aircraft----the planes are already WVR-----.

If their primary bases were farther off----they could have stayed afloat for longer and taken long shots with impunity and at their discretion-----but they have given away their primary advantage of longer legs-----why would you have a SU30 sqdrn within 2 minutes of your border with pak----when you have this aircraft that can stay afloat for 4 plus hours------what a price we pay for our posturing and strut----.

 

[danger007]

Notorious,

Goodman----. You see-----IAF has screwed itself up by placing its primary air bases so close to pakistani border that at time of take off to intercept incoming aircraft----the planes are already WVR-----.

If their primary bases were farther off----they could have stayed afloat for longer and taken long shots with impunity and at their discretion-----but they have given away their primary advantage of longer legs-----why would you have a SU30 sqdrn within 2 minutes of your border with pak----when you have this aircraft that can stay afloat for 4 plus hours------what a price we pay for our posturing and strut----.

why always thinking to intrude, like you did in kargil. if you want a war come anyways. if you are coming to attack our bases do you think we cant detect it.

 

[rockstarIN]

[UOTE=notorious_eagle;2004406]In order for you to achieve your objectives which the Indian War Planners have outlined, there is no alternative but to cross over the border and duel the skies with PAF. You have to enter my home if you want to execute your war plan, staying within your skies will be contrary to what the Indian War Plans are. If the IAF does manage to shoot down a PAF plane from stand off range, what objective does it achieve? We are not fighting a war of attrition here, what your suggesting is contrary to the Indian War Plans.

You are not getting the point, how can you arrive a conclusion that in Pak air space, it wont be BVR? if you travel 1 km, 10 km, 50 km...it starts with one step..not from 1km. to 50km jump...there is a space where we both see each other but we have capability to shoot. (with Blk 52, you too now)

o doubt; stealth, superior situational awareness and electronic warfare are very important assets in today's warfare. In our case neither side possess stealth aircrafts, PAKFA is no where near as low observable as the F22 is judging from its physical characteristics. Both sides field some excellent electronic warfare assets but their potency will only be revealed during wartime. Both sides have very extensive radar coverage, chances of a surprise strike are very low.

Both sides will see a strike package well before it even reaches the border, the introduction of AWACS is possibly the dumbest decision IAF has ever taken. Although PAF does possess excellent ground based radars, they have their limitations against low flying jets. The introduction of Airborne Radars cancels out that limitation, it will be extremely difficult for the IAF to conceal a strike package as our AWACS can look deep and down.

We both can see each other, track other..... agreed.....now (2011) both can shoot in stand off range, whats the big deal? Why should we use cavalry when we have cannons and machine guns?

 

[rockstarIN]

Notorious,

Goodman----. You see-----IAF has screwed itself up by placing its primary air bases so close to pakistani border that at time of take off to intercept incoming aircraft----the planes are already WVR-----.

If their primary bases were farther off----they could have stayed afloat for longer and taken long shots with impunity and at their discretion-----but they have given away their primary advantage of longer legs-----why would you have a SU30 sqdrn within 2 minutes of your border with pak----when you have this aircraft that can stay afloat for 4 plus hours------what a price we pay for our posturing and strut----.

Sir,

It is not 1960s, we both have early warning systems, both can see each other's air space 200km radius. Means both air force will know other just after it is airborne. There will not be any 'surprise' any more. It is like a scenario that we both know each others presence in beyond visual range itself..

Check the above, we have bases all over the north India

 

[SQ8]

You are not getting the point, how can you arrive a conclusion that in Pak air space, it wont be BVR? if you travel 1 km, 10 km, 50 km...it starts with one step..not from 1km. to 50km jump...there is a space where we both see each other but we have capability to shoot. (with Blk 52, you too now)



We both can see each other, track other..... agreed.....now (2011) both can shoot in stand off range, whats the big deal? Why should we use cavalry when we have cannons and machine guns?

because the cannon and machine guns are moving at 500 knots.

 

[Pfpilot]

Sir,

It is not 1960s, we both have early warning systems, both can see each other's air space 200km radius. Means both air force will know other just after it is airborne. There will not be any 'surprise' any more. It is like a scenario that we both know each others presence in beyond visual range itself..

Check the above, we have bases all over the north India

But isnt the issue at hand that due to the close proximity of Indian and Pakistani air bases to the border, the opportunity for BVR engagements will be far less than what is expected in other parts of the world. The IAF will surely be able to track aircraft as soon as they take off, but they wont know for sure if those aircraft are about to enter Indian air space, in a war, many aircraft will be airborne at once.
The IAF aircraft will be vectored to targets that are either already over the border or approaching and the same would be true from the PAF perspective. In such a situation, by the time the aircraft are airborne or in a position to engage, it is already a WVR engagement in my cases, simply due to the lack of space both sides are working with.

 

[Patriot]

They will be in weapons parameters and firing an AIM120 even before crossing the border.I think the key factor will be how well our aerial assets are integrated and if everything is done right and all assets such as ground radars and AWACs and integrated nicely then we can deliver a heavy punch to enemy.Situational Awareness from Ground and Aerial perspective will play a huge role.

 

[rockstarIN]

because the cannon and machine guns are moving at 500 knots.

It can, but vectored to where? and altitude? Who decides? the attacker..

Bullet speeds, does that mean knife fight has a chance in an open environment.

 

[SQ8]

It can, but vectored to where? and altitude? Who decides? the attacker..

Bullet speeds, does that mean knife fight has a chance in an open environment.

You misunderstood.
The cannons and machineguns will end up in a knife fight as well.
Not once.. but multiple times in red flag exercises.. AIM-120 shots are taken in WVR range..so thats a cannon at point blank range.
If you took off and are closer than 40nm to your threat.. by the time you lock. the enemy is a few nm closer.. you fire.. he fires.. those that survive.. will find themselves in the merge.

 

[rockstarIN]

You misunderstood.
The cannons and machineguns will end up in a knife fight as well.
Not once.. but multiple times in red flag exercises.. AIM-120 shots are taken in WVR range..so thats a cannon at point blank range.
If you took off and are closer than 40nm to your threat.. by the time you lock. the enemy is a few nm closer.. you fire.. he fires.. those that survive.. will find themselves in the merge.

You have the liberty to disengage, uh?
Sky has no limits, can go vertically as well as horizontaly. It does not mean WVR wont happen, you have to survive the first BVR shot to come closer...or else both can fire as you said...both will run away from their directions to unlock it, still there is enough place long range then.

And in red flags, a lock means enemy die..there is hardly any face off with the missiles..

 

[Chogy]

There are really THREE combat regimes, and one must understand that having actual sight of the opponent isn't the critical part.

Let's start at 0 meters to about 3000 meters. Picture a sphere around a jet. Anything in that sphere is inside the turning circle of the jet, and this is where classical BFM maneuvers take place... hard break turns, jinks, yo-yos, all the fun stuff. If I'm intruding inside a guy's turn circle, I must respond correctly, or his own maneuvering can threaten me.

From 3000 meters to maybe 8 nautical miles in the second regime. We can generally (but not always) see each other, but we are outside of each others' turn circles. What this means - picture my F-15 pointing at an F-16 8 miles ahead of me. The F-16 immediately goes into a wild 9G turn. All it looks like to me is a guy turning a tight circle. He stays in front of me. In fact, he stays within the HUD FOV. Easy kill using AIM-9 or a radar missile.

Outside of 8 to 10 nm, we exceed the range of most IR missiles, and the tools of choice are AMRAAM and others.

This is hard to describe, but what it boils down to is that most of the killing at a merge will take place in the middle regime. All you need to do is rotate your nose through 60, 90, 120 degrees, point and shoot. The guy dies. If a defender manages to get inside my own turn circle and neutralize my ability to point and shoot, I'll say "engaged neutral, need some help" and my wingman, who is outside of both of our turn circles, will rotate, point, and shoot him.

Survivors of the BVR barrage will almost all die from short, sharp hooks, fire, then we will extend/accelerate, and then bug out, as exploding airplanes will attract enemy eyes.

 

[SQ8]

You have the liberty to disengage, uh?
Sky has no limits, can go vertically as well as horizontaly. It does not mean WVR wont happen, you have to survive the first BVR shot to come closer...or else both can fire as you said...both will run away from their directions to unlock it, still there is enough place long range then.

And in red flags, a lock means enemy die..there is hardly any face off with the missiles..

You are still roaming in circles..
You may disengage.. but the distance constraint means your window to do that will be very short.
You can can run anywhere.. You may take off and head east or west to get distance.
That is your strategy... But the fact is, when you are sitting a few minutes from hostile airspace, your chances of setting up a long shot away from enemy interceptors.. and or fighter sweeps is greatly diminished.

 

[rockstarIN]

You are still roaming in circles..
You may disengage.. but the distance constraint means your window to do that will be very short.
You can can run anywhere.. You may take off and head east or west to get distance.
That is your strategy... But the fact is, when you are sitting a few minutes from hostile airspace, your chances of setting up a long shot away from enemy interceptors.. and or fighter sweeps is greatly diminished.

The point is, what you think is an adventage might be the biggest disadventage....

And in a war scenario, jets will be always on air on petrol...armed...you do not know what where will intrude.(vice versa).remember Isaf tactics in six day war.

Its been IAF - PAF stuff, can we stick to the topic?

 

[Patriot]

There are really THREE combat regimes, and one must understand that having actual sight of the opponent isn't the critical part.

Let's start at 0 meters to about 3000 meters. Picture a sphere around a jet. Anything in that sphere is inside the turning circle of the jet, and this is where classical BFM maneuvers take place... hard break turns, jinks, yo-yos, all the fun stuff. If I'm intruding inside a guy's turn circle, I must respond correctly, or his own maneuvering can threaten me.

From 3000 meters to maybe 8 nautical miles in the second regime. We can generally (but not always) see each other, but we are outside of each others' turn circles. What this means - picture my F-15 pointing at an F-16 8 miles ahead of me. The F-16 immediately goes into a wild 9G turn. All it looks like to me is a guy turning a tight circle. He stays in front of me. In fact, he stays within the HUD FOV. Easy kill using AIM-9 or a radar missile.

Outside of 8 to 10 nm, we exceed the range of most IR missiles, and the tools of choice are AMRAAM and others.

This is hard to describe, but what it boils down to is that most of the killing at a merge will take place in the middle regime. All you need to do is rotate your nose through 60, 90, 120 degrees, point and shoot. The guy dies. If a defender manages to get inside my own turn circle and neutralize my ability to point and shoot, I'll say "engaged neutral, need some help" and my wingman, who is outside of both of our turn circles, will rotate, point, and shoot him.

Survivors of the BVR barrage will almost all die from short, sharp hooks, fire, then we will extend/accelerate, and then bug out, as exploding airplanes will attract enemy eyes.

Thank you Chogy - Have you ever fired AIM120C5?I wish we could get D but they blocked for export i think.

 

[Chogy]

Thank you Chogy - Have you ever fired AIM120C5?I wish we could get D but they blocked for export i think.

You're welcome, it's a difficult concept to describe. When weapons became both reliable, AND all-aspect, it changed the game forever.

I flew in the era of the AIM-7M, never fired an AIM-120. In fact, very few pilots ever fire more than 1 or 2 missiles in peace time. They are too expensive.

I fired an AIM-9L at a BQM Firebee drone. They put the drone into a 6 G turn, put you inside the turn circle, and clear you to fire. Since you are inside the circle, you need to do some BFM. For practice shots, they remove the warhead and replace it with a telemetry rig, and they then gather data on missile performance. This way, they give aircrews experience, and they also gather information on how the missiles perform.

Despite no warhead, they lose a lot of expensive drones because the missile spears the target. If the missile passes within about 10 meters (give or take) it is considered a hit, because the proximity fuse would detect the target and detonate the warhead. This blows pyrophoric debris and cuts through airframes like a knife through jello. Sets nasty fires.

If the drone survives, they deploy a parachute and attempt to recover the drone from the ocean:

If the drone is damaged and cannot be recovered, the range officers (flying nearby) are cleared in to kill the drone with a war-shot, a missile with a warhead. Or they are given clearance to gun it with HEI. This is more appropriate for full-sized drones like the QF-4. Of course, they love this job!

At the bottom of the ocean in the Gulf of Mexico and other places are possibly thousands of missiles and drones. I've often wondered if the SOviets attempted to dredge them up.

Having the live AIM-9L ($50,000 to $100,000) on my rail was like having a fine sports car hung there. I was almost tempted to say "Keep the missile, give me the $$, we'll all be happy." Of course that wasn't going to happen.