Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Jango]

No missile is impossible to defeat, but it's getting very, very hard. And only getting worse.

Along with improved seeker sensitivity came much improved seeker slew rates, and even better, as things went digital, the algorithms that drove the missile-target intercept profile improved dramatically. For lack of a better term, missiles became smarter.

All of the orthoganol rolls at 9G in the world are going to have a tough time with a 30 to 50 G missile.

I think that "acceptable maneuverability" is the future, rather than "hyper-maneuverability." Most important are sensors, early acquisition, and range. Kill him before he kills (or even sees) you or your flight.

P.S. missiles are now smokeless, meaning, you can't see them. And if you can't see it, you cannot maneuver against it.

Must be a really bad feeling feeling when you getting painted and the sound goes off, what are the counter measures ??,,,flare , chaff and/or out maneouvering the missile?

 

[Silk]

No missile is impossible to defeat, but it's getting very, very hard. And only getting worse.

Along with improved seeker sensitivity came much improved seeker slew rates, and even better, as things went digital, the algorithms that drove the missile-target intercept profile improved dramatically. For lack of a better term, missiles became smarter.

All of the orthoganol rolls at 9G in the world are going to have a tough time with a 30 to 50 G missile.

I think that "acceptable maneuverability" is the future, rather than "hyper-maneuverability." Most important are sensors, early acquisition, and range. Kill him before he kills (or even sees) you or your flight.

P.S. missiles are now smokeless, meaning, you can't see them. And if you can't see it, you cannot maneuver against it.

The countermeasures are evolving. The time of chaff and flare are gone. But I agree that it is not smart to go wvr...

 

[MastanKhan]

Chogy,

Thank you for your eye opening posts----so often people don't understand that sometimes the target plane blows up by a missile strike and the recipient pilot dosnot know when he died----long range high speed missile---opponents radar has a very short range---in panic heat of the battle missile lock doesnot even register.

Secondly---with the paramemters that you are talking about----there is more so a reason to break into the electronic codes of the long range missiles and radars---if yuou can get into the brains----you can fool the missile----isn't that where the late 90's research in the u s air warfare was headed towards----.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Chogy is that true that you are ex f-15 pilot ? or what other aircrafts have you flown ? sorry a bit of topic here .

yes he served in the USAF, he is an ex- F-15 pilot

From what I recall, he flew around West Germany during Cold War (before the wall crumbling down). He engaged with East German aircrafts.

Subsequently he became an instructor for T-38 platform.

I am probably missing some things here. I think apart from Sir MuradK, Chogy is the only combat pilot we've had on PDF.

he's a good friend

 

[fatman17]

yes he served in the USAF, he is an ex- F-15 pilot

From what I recall, he flew around West Germany during Cold War (before the wall crumbling down). He engaged with East German aircrafts.

Subsequently he became an instructor for T-38 platform.

I am probably missing some things here. I think apart from Sir MuradK, Chogy is the only combat pilot we've had on PDF.

he's a good friend

x-man is/was a combat pilot

 

[air marshal]

 

[Chogy]

Abu Z - thanks buddy.

sounds quite scary....i guess the only indication that something is coming after you is when you are being painted and the audible warning comes on

so really then, what ARE you supposed to do in that situation? Full power, jettison tanks and looking wildly in all directions?

Must be a really bad feeling feeling when you getting painted and the sound goes off, what are the counter measures ??,,,flare , chaff and/or out maneouvering the missile?

IR missiles don't even require a lock, so RWR won't help. They have missile launch warning systems now, but I haven't seen much data. At best, I'd guess they'll say "a missile is inbound". One problem is that every member of your flight is going to get the same warning. It'll be chaos.

Basically then yes, all you can do it jettison everything and begin a downhill orthoganol roll, dump chaff and flares, and die like a man. Hope your buddies take vengeance.

Taken as a whole, it emphasizes how important stealth and stand-off BVR is becoming.

Secondly---with the paramemters that you are talking about----there is more so a reason to break into the electronic codes of the long range missiles and radars---if yuou can get into the brains----you can fool the missile----isn't that where the late 90's research in the u s air warfare was headed towards----.

When you refer to codes, I am assuming you mean methods to spoof radar missiles with EW. I am not convinced that missiles fly around with a radio receiver built in so that an enemy can send a digital burst and turn it off. That makes no sense. IR missiles don't have radio frequency equipment in them, anyhow. They have a cooled IR seeker, a proximity fuse that uses lasers, a rocket motor, and maneuvering package. None of these use radio.

"Check six" means nothing today. The era of maneuvering behind an opponent lasted from WW1 to approximately 1990. Gulf War 1 had NO turning fights. Not one. All of it was high-speed hit and run.

Air Forces will practice maneuvering, as there will always be a need for it, but as a percentage of operational scale, it's going WAY down in importance. Like cavalry units practicing the charge in 1925, the era of Maxim guns and fast-firing artillery with air-burst fuses. They were obsolete, but refused to acknowledge it.

 

[soul hacker]

if F16 with aim120 comes one to one with SU 30 MKI,what will be the scenario

sorry for going off the topic but will be thankful if someone give me the answer

 

[Silk]

The next gen does have MAWS. Not extremely profitable but atleast you know where something came from. The newer gen will have laser system to counter IR attacks. But I agree that getting into WVR is no-no. The US netcentric warfare is opposing that. But what if two equal nations fight a2a. That is whole different with what the USA does. Fighting a crippled nation with overwhelming power is not a fair fight.

 

[untitled]

"Check six" means nothing today. The era of maneuvering behind an opponent lasted from WW1 to approximately 1990. Gulf War 1 had NO turning fights. Not one. All of it was high-speed hit and run.

Has that not that been said after every major conflict only to be proved incorrect ?

 

[SQ8]

Has that not that been said after every major conflict only to be proved in correct ?

Not really.. swords were thought to be an essential accessory.. and they were till WWI even for some. even though guns had co-existed with them for over 200 years.
But the dawn of the machine gun.. and other improvement spelt the end of realm of the blade.

 

[Jango]

Abu Z - thanks buddy.





IR missiles don't even require a lock, so RWR won't help. They have missile launch warning systems now, but I haven't seen much data. At best, I'd guess they'll say "a missile is inbound". One problem is that every member of your flight is going to get the same warning. It'll be chaos.

Basically then yes, all you can do it jettison everything and begin a downhill orthoganol roll, dump chaff and flares, and die like a man. Hope your buddies take vengeance.

Taken as a whole, it emphasizes how important stealth and stand-off BVR is becoming.



When you refer to codes, I am assuming you mean methods to spoof radar missiles with EW. I am not convinced that missiles fly around with a radio receiver built in so that an enemy can send a digital burst and turn it off. That makes no sense. IR missiles don't have radio frequency equipment in them, anyhow. They have a cooled IR seeker, a proximity fuse that uses lasers, a rocket motor, and maneuvering package. None of these use radio.

"Check six" means nothing today. The era of maneuvering behind an opponent lasted from WW1 to approximately 1990. Gulf War 1 had NO turning fights. Not one. All of it was high-speed hit and run.

Air Forces will practice maneuvering, as there will always be a need for it, but as a percentage of operational scale, it's going WAY down in importance. Like cavalry units practicing the charge in 1925, the era of Maxim guns and fast-firing artillery with air-burst fuses. They were obsolete, but refused to acknowledge it.

If every member gets a warning, so what is the normal procedure, does every pilot go for his own life, or the member go for a practised maneouver in tandem?,,,is this problem existing even now?

 

[VCheng]

Some people are already opining that the F-35 will be the last major manned fighter jet due to the trends that Chogy just mentioned.

 

[SQ8]

Some people are already opining that the F-35 will be the last major manned fighter jet due to the trends that Chogy just mentioned.

There may be a 6th gen optionally manned jet..

If humanity hasnt nuked itself to the stone age and we are fighting with sticks and stones by then.

 

[Jango]

Some people are already opining that the F-35 will be the last major manned fighter jet due to the trends that Chogy just mentioned.

Not the gth gen , 7th gen may get a human pilot out of the cockpit, but as Santro mentioned, 6th gen is going to be optionally manned and that option is going to be excersiced alot IMO.