Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Arsalan]

these are more advanced version of block 52 as i have read through many articles. currently the greel airforce are usin 60 of these machines with an additional 30 on order. it is only slightly different from the block 60 as they were made for the UAE airforce so have some changes.

but still the question is how are we going to get these latest equipment and when, actuall with all respect, i am sorry but i do not beleive that this is going to happen.

we must concentrate more on the JF17 and J10 rather thatn looking forward to the always lair americans

 

[chirag.s]

hi guys just wanna ask a question
i recently read in the book UNCOVERING THE LOCKHEED MARTIN F-16 basically a scale modelling book that f-16s have RAM coating near the flaps and the stabilizers what about the new babes you are getting may be sir murad can help me.

thank you

 

[PAFAce]

with all respect, i am sorry but i do not beleive that this is going to happen.

I hate to admit this, but that is a possibility. Pakistan, I have always maintained, has been a strategically located ally for the US on many occasions, with more emphasis on the first two words than the last. Therefore, if the war in Afghanistan suddenly ended for the Americans today, and they don't need us anymore, there will be no reason for them to go ahead with any sales.

It has happened before. In 1990 with the Pressler Amendment and again in 1998 with the Glenn Ammendment. They even stopped the Swedes from selling us the JAS-39 Grippen, because it contains 20% American parts!

However, I cannot emphasize this enough, the PAF is ready for that this time. We have alternate arrangements with the Chinese, the FC-20, and surely have other (secret) backup plans as well. Our CAS has said this many times. The Americans do not want to repeat past mistakes, but if they do, we are prepared this time.

 

[Arsalan]

I hate to admit this, but that is a possibility. Pakistan, I have always maintained, has been a strategically located ally for the US on many occasions, with more emphasis on the first two words than the last. Therefore, if the war in Afghanistan suddenly ended for the Americans today, and they don't need us anymore, there will be no reason for them to go ahead with any sales.

It has happened before. In 1990 with the Pressler Amendment and again in 1998 with the Glenn Ammendment. They even stopped the Swedes from selling us the JAS-39 Grippen, because it contains 20% American parts!

However, I cannot emphasize this enough, the PAF is ready for that this time. We have alternate arrangements with the Chinese, the FC-20, and surely have other (secret) backup plans as well. Our CAS has said this many times. The Americans do not want to repeat past mistakes, but if they do, we are prepared this time.

sadly enough, but have to agree with all this

 

[Arsalan]

we will be getting them in 2010 and we have an option to buy 18 more.

with all respect sir i want some clarification sir

it is the deal which was to be finalize last year i-e in 2008 but the US congress postponed it for FURTHER CONSIDERATION till 2010. many people take it to be misleading, considering the deliveries of the plane to start by 2010 which in not the case. in fact it will be again bring into congress consideration in 2010.

lately in 2008 the bill was refuced or rejected by caliming that these planes will be used against india rather than the terrorists.


so my point is that we Cannot relay on US option as we can not say that we will get these planes with 100% surety

 

[mean_bird]

with all respect sir i want some clarification sir

it is the deal which was to be finalize last year i-e in 2008 but the US congress postponed it for FURTHER CONSIDERATION till 2010. many people take it to be misleading, considering the deliveries of the plane to start by 2010 which in not the case. in fact it will be again bring into congress consideration in 2010.

lately in 2008 the bill was refuced or rejected by caliming that these planes will be used against india rather than the terrorists.


so my point is that we Cannot relay on US option as we can not say that we will get these planes with 100% surety

No!

To the best of my knowledge, the new F-16s that we are buying have no such constraints. They will be 'delivered' in 2010-11.

What is yet to be passed by the US congress is that we are getting the used F-16s with MLUs through the FMF (foreign military funding). That has to be Oked by the US congress because they are part of the 3-yr US$ 1.5 billion give to pakistan.

Here's the interview that should make things quite clear.

 

[mean_bird]

It has happened before. In 1990 with the Pressler Amendment and again in 1998 with the Glenn Ammendment. They even stopped the Swedes from selling us the JAS-39 Grippen, because it contains 20% American parts!

Did they?

AFAIK, PAF didn't buy Grippen because

1. They were costly
2. They aren't multi-role fighters that fulfilled PAF's requirement
3. There were chances of US blocking it in times of difficulties.

I don't think they blocked it but we didnt buy just to be on the safe side (and because of the other mentioned reasons).

 

[blain2]

Thanks bro, I don't really want to work for Lockheed Martin cos it is an American company, but I would like to work for some similar organisation famed for it's engineering capabilities, preferably in Pakistan (or perhaps China), where I can learn and contribute. Hopefully Pakistan will develop itself a lot over the next decade or so to make this possible for me.



So what do you guys think? Should the gun be sacrificed for extended range/loitering time?

Gun should not be sacrificed for anything. This is the only thing which works as close to 99% of the availability as possible.

 

[blain2]

Did they?

AFAIK, PAF didn't buy Grippen because

1. They were costly
2. They aren't multi-role fighters that fulfilled PAF's requirement
3. There were chances of US blocking it in times of difficulties.

I don't think they blocked it but we didnt buy just to be on the safe side (and because of the other mentioned reasons).

The problem was #3. The US was not allowing the export of Gripen to Pakistan even when the Swedish government approached the USG (due to the GE engines and other avionics of US origin integrated). The aircraft (even the non-GripenNG version) is a capable MR platform and is very cost effective.

Once the relations with the US normalized, the F-16 tap opened up again and at that point, the newer variants of the F-16 (blk-52s) made much better sense for us to induct due to our familiarity with the system than have to bother with inducting a totally new type. In other words, the Gripen was an alternate along with the Mirage 2000 to the F-16s.

 

[chirag.s]

guys please lets stick to the topic those videos can go t the multimedia thread none of you have answered my query about the RAM coating is it also included or the cream still remains with USAF ???

SORRY blain2 BUT BIENG A MOD YOU SHOULDN'T GO OFF TOPIC PLEASE...

 

[PAFAce]

AFAIK, PAF didn't buy Grippen because

1. They were costly
2. They aren't multi-role fighters that fulfilled PAF's requirement
3. There were chances of US blocking it in times of difficulties.

Blain2 is correct. In The Story of the PAF it is said that both the Swedes and the Pakistanis were very happy with the deal, however, since there were US parts involved, the Swede govt. approached the USG for approval. They were told that the Swedes were not allowed sell any US parts to any country affected by the Pressler Amendment.

Refer to The Story of the PAF for more details.

 

[mean_bird]

Blain2 is correct. In The Story of the PAF it is said that both the Swedes and the Pakistanis were very happy with the deal, however, since there were US parts involved, the Swede govt. approached the USG for approval. They were told that the Swedes were not allowed sell any US parts to any country affected by the Pressler Amendment.

Refer to The Story of the PAF for more details.

I was basing my argument on an earlier ACM interview where he stated that the Grippen wasn't a multi-role fighter.

Anyway, where can I get my hand on "The Story of PAF"? Anyone got a PDF copy?

 

[PAFAce]

I was basing my argument on an earlier ACM interview where he stated that the Grippen wasn't a multi-role fighter.

Anyway, where can I get my hand on "The Story of PAF"? Anyone got a PDF copy?

Before you read The Story of PAF, you should read The History of PAF. I was thinking of starting a thread on this topic. The books every PAF and aviation fan must read. It would be a delightful change from the usual hot/controversial topics we have here.

I go to the University of Toronto, so I have at my disposal over 50 libraries in the city, including the 3rd largest library in North America (largest in Canada). So anytime I need a book, I just go there. If they don't have it, I submit an application and they usually get it within 2 months. I am quite lucky that way, because I realise there are things available to me that people dream of elsewhere.

 

[hj786]

Anybody know whats happening with the F-16 MLUs?
I read on another forum (link http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showthread.php?t=46781&page=4) that there is a delay with US congress clearing the deal - MLUed F-16s won't arrive until block 52s arrive, sometime in 2010/2011. The same guy also said the situation is the same with AMRAAMs - none have been delivered yet as congress has not cleared the sale, and even if they are cleared PAF's F-16s can't fire them right now. According to F-16.net they can, but he says that source is out of date anyway.

Can anybody confirm whats going on?

 

[Arsalan]

sorry for being off the topic

kindly do visit:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/20716-surface-air-missile.html

and share you knowledge

thankyou for your co-operation