Pakistan cuts steel on third Azmat-class missile patrol craft

[A2Z]

A good news, better late than never however its time that we get rid of this being late habit and induct some big guns in quick secession. I have said this earlier in another thread as well that in a future war all three armed forces would have to fight as one team. It wont be something like Kargil, so it is very important to have every branch of armed forces strong enough. Again the team is as strong as its weakest link and in case of Pakistan, navy is the weskest link.

 

[araz]

It's much more economical to build Naval airbase and launch aircraft with IFR than to build and maintain CVBG

I think you are very right and we will have to induct some twin engined platforms for this purpose.
However ships have a utility of their own which cannot be denied . Also take into account that we start preparations for a naval platform roughly a decade before their expected use.
Araz

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

I think you are very right and we will have to induct some twin engined platforms for this purpose.
However ships have a utility of their own which cannot be denied . Also take into account that we start preparations for a naval platform roughly a decade before their expected use.
Araz

The current situation Pakistan or for that matter most countries are facing is Should they go for a 4++ Gen fighter or a 5 gen fighter. Pakistan though is in a much more dire situation due to a very weak Navy and limitation of funds to add the topping.

What to do...Increase the number of existing types that are currently in operations. Find low cost older Surface and Submerged equipment that is readily available to increase capability.

 

[CHI RULES]

Where do we stand today??? We have much higher chance of defending us today then we had in the past. It is not an IDEAL situation...Still you consider India is going to attack Pakistan knowing that it would have to face a Nuclear attack on an Indian city. No doubt Indian Navy is a huge force and is increasing itself by modernization.

Don't you remember what was said by the Chinese President? "A attack on Islamabad would be considered an attack on Beijing."
Lets consider that this is just words and no action would be taken other then some sanctions, more statements of condemnation and UN Security Council session. But that itself would be a defeat for India and a victory of Pakistan.

What is the current speed?
1) Pakistan to raise 12000 marines.
2) 8 Cutters from USA.
3) 4 ATR's
4) 4 F22 Frigates
5) 8 Chinese Subs.
6) 18-36 JF-17's.
7) Azmat Class Current thread.
8) Landing Craft
9) Fleet Tanker

So sorry to hear that you have been waiting for such a long time (rockstar08 Joined: Sep 18, 2013) but PN is doing nothing for you.

Dear Sir,
I have some difference of opinion with u which I shall share by facts.

1) Marines have different duties and may be used to protect naval ports along with border of Ran of Kuch only.
2) Cutters can be used to stop smuggling only by Coast Guard or MSA no use for naval defence.
3) Perhaps ATRs themselves shall require escort by proper fighter jets which we lack.
4) Hope we may get F23 upgraded shape of F22 frigates with at least some Medium range SAM if Hq9 not possible to be installed. In present shape they will be useless.
5) If armed with long range Naval/Land Attack cruise missiles then only may prove to be potent.
6) Shall be useless in Attcak role only may be used as interceptors or defend limited naval area. We require a mix of JF17s along with twin engine 4.5th gen Naval fighter like J11b or J16 which ever is possible for deep strikes on Naval assets of enemy.
7) May prove to be beneficial for defense purposes.
8) Landing craft has no role for naval defence.
9) Fleet Tanker no direct role in naval defense.

Other than above points we should have some mobilized coastal Missile batteries as last line of naval defense. Further we may install some sort of Radars along with SAMs/ Naval Attack Missiles on few big Islands in Arabian Sea.
We should find best from scrap instead of retiring Tariq Class Ships we should upgarde them with the help of China. Meanwhile we should install AEGIS type defense system on our single OHP to make it more capable along with long range Naval Attack Cruise Missiles.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Dear Sir,
I have some difference of opinion with u which I shall share by facts.

1) Marines have different duties and may be used to protect naval ports along with border of Ran of Kuch only.
2) Cutters can be used to stop smuggling only by Coast Guard or MSA no use for naval defence.
3) Perhaps ATRs themselves shall require escort by proper fighter jets which we lack.
4) Hope we may get F23 upgraded shape of F22 frigates with at least some Medium range SAM if Hq9 not possible to be installed. In present shape they will be useless.
5) If armed with long range Naval/Land Attack cruise missiles then only may prove to be potent.
6) Shall be useless in Attcak role only may be used as interceptors or defend limited naval area. We require a mix of JF17s along with twin engine 4.5th gen Naval fighter like J11b or J16 which ever is possible for deep strikes on Naval assets of enemy.
7) May prove to be beneficial for defense purposes.
8) Landing craft has no role for naval defence.
9) Fleet Tanker no direct role in naval defense.

Other than above points we should have some mobilized coastal Missile batteries as last line of naval defense. Further we may install some sort of Radars along with SAMs/ Naval Attack Missiles on few big Islands in Arabian Sea.
We should find best from scrap instead of retiring Tariq Class Ships we should upgarde them with the help of China. Meanwhile we should install AEGIS type defense system on our single OHP to make it more capable along with long range Naval Attack Cruise Missiles.

Sir,
I respect you opinion but my post that you have replied too was to show what is being achieved by the PN. Sir still what you are saying has been discussed many times, many good solutions have been given unfortunately still the Navy is lacking behind.

First of all the roles (task's and targets) of Pakistan Navy and Coast Guard should be clear. If it is agreed than they should be combined so that they may be able to complement each other in a far batter way. This should be done without wasting time.

The local Ship building companies should be given first priorities to build what ever is required. Even if they need to increase the capabilities they should be given funds without delay.

1) Marines have different duties and may be used to protect naval ports along with border of Ran of Kuch only. Not really. It all depends on what kind of task is going to be given. Look at the French Marines or US Naval Seals or the US Marines.
2) Cutters can be used to stop smuggling only by Coast Guard or MSA no use for naval defence. Still it is not clear if these are bought for the Navy or for the Coast Guard. The only thing that is known is these are for anti piracy operations and would carry 50cal guns. What is the performance in deep waters is not known.
3) Perhaps ATRs themselves shall require escort by proper fighter jets which we lack. Navy is operating these ATR's and additional 3 are going to join. Most probably they are for transportation. As anti submarine operation is done by F-27's and P3c Orions.
4) Hope we may get F23 upgraded shape of F22 frigates with at least some Medium range SAM if Hq9 not possible to be installed. In present shape they will be useless. Some time back I had a discussion with @Penguin about the said F-23's and F-22P's. If I remember correctly my friend said the Turkish are also planning some sort of joint venture. What is the current situation is not known. Though some modified ships based on the F-22P have been sold to other countries. During IDEAS 2012 or 2014 it was rumored that Turkey would arm the F-22P's and they would be called F-23's but this never matured.
There is also Talk of getting the old British Type 23's and or the Turkish Barbaros Class. What is the present situation is still unclear.

JF-17/J-10/J-11/J-16/F-18's all have been in the news for some time now. When and What is going to come is a million dollar question.
As I have already mentioned the problem in the above post #49 you would be able to understand why the delay.
8) Landing craft has no role for naval defence.
9) Fleet Tanker no direct role in naval defense. Both 8 & 9 are required because one is for sending troops and equipment to far away areas and the fleet tanker is required to replenish supplies to other ships if they can not return to port in case of deployment in a distant area.

Other than above points we should have some mobilized coastal Missile batteries as last line of naval defense. Further we may install some sort of Radars along with SAMs/ Naval Attack Missiles on few big Islands in Arabian Sea.
This is required and work is going on please go trough PDF and you would find a lot of things.

Tariq Class is past its life nothing can be done other then replace it.
OHP can not be upgraded because USA would not allow it. Best thing is to replace this as well. The is a White Elephant.

At the end it is easy to say PN should have this or this but is it really required. There is no limit to what is ideal. We all can wish PN to have AH-1Z's or Z-10's along with Tanks, Aircraft Carriers with F-35 Lightning II's but is it required.

 

[araz]

The current situation Pakistan or for that matter most countries are facing is Should they go for a 4++ Gen fighter or a 5 gen fighter. Pakistan though is in a much more dire situation due to a very weak Navy and limitation of funds to add the topping.

What to do...Increase the number of existing types that are currently in operations. Find low cost older Surface and Submerged equipment that is readily available to increase capability.

The answer is not an easy one and the problems lie else where. If we analyse the situation the things that have held the Navy back in order of importance are:
1. The anaemic economy.
2. Perception of the army that navy is not a necessity in case of war with india.
3. The lack of availability of platforms in the right price bracket.
4. Blockage/ unavailability of time relevant technology.
No 2 is more of a historical perspective. The gulf wars have clearly made the army wake up and smell the coffee. Recent push and support for the PAF and PN by the army chiefs is reflective of that. However if they start development now the effects will be seen 6_10 yrs down the line.
Someone once told me that unlike aircrafts, naval vessels need years to master. Since there is similarities in platforms from same origin a Navy would like to go for platforms from the same vendors to decrease integration time. This has clearly not been the case. The US and UK platforms that we have previously had have both been difficult to acquire. Both the price and availability of platforms at the right price and availability have been issues. The recall of the brooks and Garcia class by the US on expiry of their lease period was a mean act and has made PN very aware of US Products. The UK Navy has been expensive and because of the price tags even second hand crafts have been difficult to acquire. The OHP saga was probably the last nail in this painful journey.
The Chinese on the other hand have come up leaps and bounds. Their progress has been phenominal and from producing carbbon copies of old Russia stuff they have progressed to producing really updated crafts. Their problem is that upto now they had really lagged behind in avionics and missiles. All of that is now behind them and inspite of some quality issues PN has generally been happy at what has been given to us.
However contrary to most of our jingoistic brethren the Chinese are still out there to make money. There are no free lunches and the more updated the tech the more the cost. Which brings us back to the first point. The economy needs to improve to allow us to purchase the relevant ships for our navy. The aspects invoved are multiple and need a couple of books to highlight. In a nutshell till we change the very way we look at things and start doing things differently things in Pakistan will not change. The laziness needs to go. We need to have a public private enterprise in all defence related industry which tries and produces its own stuff through collaboration and joint ventures instead of simply buying from abroad. There needs to be a bigger emphasis on peace in the land and justice so that no one cheats each other. There should be pride in our national produce instead of" faaren ka maal". Till we do that we are not going to go anywhere..
In a nutshell the economy is the root of it all yaar!!!!!!
Araz

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

@araz

Well Uncle Sam has always created problems. What happened after the US ships were pulled back was a mistake on part of PN they could have gone for some others from France.

UK knew that US or their ships have been operated and hence they could squeeze more from Pakistan as PN is desperate to get British ones. Pure Business can not blame them.

Unfortunately one learns from mistakes not just those committed by our selves but also from others which clearly PN did not consider.

PN had a good chance of getting more Agosta Subs and they could have got some other stuff too from France in 1990-2000 period.

Even if every thing fails then there is
"necessity is mother of invention".

Pakistan has Karachi as a manufacturing hub it could have been uses to make some sort of ships or at-least small attack crafts for coastal defenses. Unfortunately these were also neglected and till now PN is heavily dependent on the US for our defence needs.

PN could have gone for the Turkish projects in the 2000-2010 period trough the WOT support fund unfortunately nothing happened.

Finally PN has started to acquire stuff from China and it is going to take time as you have pointed out. Still it is not advisable to put all the eggs in one basket.

Still the dedicated Fighter squadron acquisition remains a difficult process. One must consider that if acquiring why should one not get the latest technology that can be used for a longer period.

 

[S.Y.A]

yeah i know it will take years but question is how many ?
The Enemy is growing day by day , there is a lesson our Navy should learn from 71 bombing , If IN able to block our sea lines , than this time , it will be much more hard to break it ..
sometimes i wonder that does NAVY has a plan to induct ? or any strategy to follow , sometimes they want to buy OHP junks , sometimes they want more F-22p's , no Heavy Fighters for Naval Air wing , no heavy Destroyers with good SAM systems to protect our ships ..

i posted the same thing a few weeks ago, but everyone just crapped collectively on my post saying that since the navy cannot fight in plains of punjab, it is of no importance.

@araz

Well Uncle Sam has always created problems. What happened after the US ships were pulled back was a mistake on part of PN they could have gone for some others from France.

UK knew that US or their ships have been operated and hence they could squeeze more from Pakistan as PN is desperate to get British ones. Pure Business can not blame them.

Unfortunately one learns from mistakes not just those committed by our selves but also from others which clearly PN did not consider.

PN had a good chance of getting more Agosta Subs and they could have got some other stuff too from France in 1990-2000 period.

Even if every thing fails then there is
"necessity is mother of invention".

Pakistan has Karachi as a manufacturing hub it could have been uses to make some sort of ships or at-least small attack crafts for coastal defenses. Unfortunately these were also neglected and till now PN is heavily dependent on the US for our defence needs.

PN could have gone for the Turkish projects in the 2000-2010 period trough the WOT support fund unfortunately nothing happened.

Finally PN has started to acquire stuff from China and it is going to take time as you have pointed out. Still it is not advisable to put all the eggs in one basket.

Still the dedicated Fighter squadron acquisition remains a difficult process. One must consider that if acquiring why should one not get the latest technology that can be used for a longer period.

i read a biography of a former CNS of the navy, in it he mentioned that navy had held talks with UK and it was decided that we will co-produce the type-23 frigates in the 80's. but God bless Junejo and his cabinet that he blocked that deal, and then a few years later we had to settle for crappy and used type 21s.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

i read a biography of a former CNS of the navy, in it he mentioned that navy had held talks with UK and it was decided that we will co-produce the type-23 frigates in the 80's. but God bless Junejo and his cabinet that he blocked that deal, and then a few years later we had to settle for crappy and used type 21s.

Red tape is always going to play a part be it locally or internationally. A wise man is supposed to find the best possible way addressing every angle and difficulty.

 

[PatriotLover]

Ridzwan Rahmat, Singapore - IHS Jane's Navy International
16 April 2015

State-owned shipbuilder Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works Limited (KSEW) held a steel-cutting ceremony for the Pakistan Navy's third Azmat-class missile patrol craft on 16 April.

In a statement marking the occasion, KSEW said that the vessel - which derives its design from the People's Liberation Army Navy's (PLAN's) Houjian-class fast attack craft - is being built in collaboration with China.

The statement did not provide details on which Chinese company KSEW is collaborating with. First-of-class PNS Azmat (1013) was built by China Shipbuilding & Offshore Company's Xingang Shipyard in Tianjin. Second ship, PNS Deshat (1014), was built in Karachi under a technology transfer agreement with the same company.

(108 of 274 words)

Pakistan cuts steel on third Azmat-class missile patrol craft - IHS Jane's 360

Good to hear that further ships will be built in Karachi, rather than in China.

 

[FuturePAF]

Money is slowing down induction, the navy has a lot of plans, but little cash to spare.

the azmat class is actually a decent ship for its cost
hope they add a smaller fl-3000n launcher by the fantail instead of a rhib, the pn is getting dedicated coast guard boats so this boat should be maximized for warfighting
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DQU-futEl...on+ciws+c8023abc+602+hhq9+16+7+10+%285%29.jpg

 

[That Guy]

the azmat class is actually a decent ship for its cost
hope they add a smaller fl-3000n launcher by the fantail instead of a rhib, the pn is getting dedicated coast guard boats so this boat should be maximized for warfighting
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DQU-futElNs/T8twzrFzm3I/AAAAAAAAL50/pETkmzSZaHU/s1600/Chinese Type 056 Corvette Under Construction ciws c8023abc 602 hhq9 16 7 10 %285%29.jpg

Then again, a Lamborghini on sale is still not affordable for me.

 

[S.Y.A]

Then again, a Lamborghini on sale is still not affordable for me.

buy a darra made pistol, for a few thousand rupees...then you can have all the cars you want

 

[Ibr0kEmYrAz0r]

Bravo! good little boat that can be produced locally, well done

 

[Blue Marlin]

probably 4-6 total

they total requirements are for 8 in total