Pakistan conducts successful test launches of 4 x Nasr missiles 05 Nov, 2013

[erwineugene]

Nice assessment

BTW this is first time im saying this to an India.

Well the CSD is certainly going to be held in Desert Areas thats why u have new Army HQs in Jaipur, Rajistan India. And given the exercises u had been doing since 2004 on CSD r in deserts as the terrain of desert is open from all sides and its very hard to defend there as enemy can comes from anywhere even from back. Where as in Punjab areas where there r soft fertile lands there r many obstacles specially for Tanks and MIBs like Canals, Rivers, Jungles etc etc its very very hard to surprise the enemy with IBG level attacks and also since 5 war Pakistan has massively fortified its positions in those areas and tell u the truth Punjab province has highest density of population in entire pakistan which has 90 million population out of 180 million.

In Punjab our top command is not worried as we have make sure there that we can defend our country there with full satisfaction. but the barren deserts where population is close to none r problem and the border areas of South East of Pakistan dont have any population as the small patches which were there already were shifted to other areas making it a complete battle ready centers. So if we nuke a barren desert which as no population nor there is any chance of human presence in future r fair option in the sole purpose of defending our motherland.

The Thing is TNW in today's war scenarios are useless, they are the result of doctrines found on the war scenarios which developed when most of the battlefield was static(post 2nd world war , nato hoped to destroy the red army formation in case of war in eastern europe using tnw's ) if not static at least not as dynamic as today's. your tnw doctrine against hypothetical cold start xpect a lot of static nature of battlefield, u cant find amassed enemy formations so u can throw ur nuke at them.
if ur saying that its a deterrence,well possessing nuke weps itself give deterrence, pak dont need to develop(or waste much precious resources). even if it is a counter force wep or counter value detonating a nuke wep on conventional force will be followed by a nuke war .
if the two opposing countries posses nukes(strategic) it would be a deterrent,if one posses tactical(at least which actively threatens to use it ) then that is an enticement on nuke war ...why the pak doctrine misses this logic.

 

[SQ8]

The Thing is TNW in today's war scenarios are useless, they are the result of doctrines found on the war scenarios which developed when most of the battlefield was static(post 2nd world war ) if not static at least not as dynamic as today's. your tnw doctrine against hypothetical cold start xpect a lot of static nature of battlefield, u cant find amassed enemy formations so u can throw ur nuke at them.
if ur saying that its a deterrence,well possessing nuke weps itself give deterrence, pak dont need to develop(or waste much precious resources). even if it is a counter force wep or counter value detonating a nuke wep on conventional force will be followed by a nuke war .

The question is not of throwing at nuke at Amassed formations, its of throwing a nuke at attacking columns.
Whether 80 tanks get hit or 8.. the usage of a nuke will leave India no choice(if it is true to its own policies of all out attack after a single nuke) except total retaliation. This is what Pakistan counts on anyway now. As its strategic warheads will be ready go before it uses the TNW. That is something that India does not want or can afford regardless of the bravado of fanboys here. Hence, unless India changes its policies to one of gradual escalation in nuclear weapons as well, its own policies are going ensure the success of TNWs as a deterrent force.

 

[erwineugene]

The question is not of throwing at nuke at Amassed formations, its of throwing a nuke at attacking columns.
Whether 80 tanks get hit or 8.. the usage of a nuke will leave India no choice(if it is true to its own policies of all out attack after a single nuke) except total retaliation. This is what Pakistan counts on anyway now. As its strategic warheads will be ready go before it uses the TNW. That is something that India does not want or can afford regardless of the bravado of fanboys here. Hence, unless India changes its policies to one of gradual escalation in nuclear weapons as well, its own policies are going ensure the success of TNWs as a deterrent force.

so then why is the question of developing a tnw ? if the strategic weps are already posed to be fired. 

The question is not of throwing at nuke at Amassed formations, its of throwing a nuke at attacking columns.
Whether 80 tanks get hit or 8.. the usage of a nuke will leave India no choice(if it is true to its own policies of all out attack after a single nuke) except total retaliation. This is what Pakistan counts on anyway now. As its strategic warheads will be ready go before it uses the TNW. That is something that India does not want or can afford regardless of the bravado of fanboys here. Hence, unless India changes its policies to one of gradual escalation in nuclear weapons as well, its own policies are going ensure the success of TNWs as a deterrent force.

i dont think this should be question of readiness since it really means a first strike from pakistan and safely we can assume the readiness of Indian sfc to detect the attack. so in a nuke war its the question of deterrence follwed by the second strike ability as in reality there in very less possibility for a decapitation strike

 

[saiyan0321]

Good. This will help us develop and produce this warhead and many others. Love the shoot and scoot development with the missile. Hoping more tests with more capabilities.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

The Thing is TNW in today's war scenarios are useless, they are the result of doctrines found on the war scenarios which developed when most of the battlefield was static(post 2nd world war ) if not static at least not as dynamic as today's. your tnw doctrine against hypothetical cold start xpect a lot of static nature of battlefield, u cant find amassed enemy formations so u can throw ur nuke at them.
if ur saying that its a deterrence,well possessing nuke weps itself give deterrence, pak dont need to develop(or waste much precious resources). even if it is a counter force wep or counter value detonating a nuke wep on conventional force will be followed by a nuke war .

1) Well let us decide whether they r use full or use less. After all we r the one in possession.
2) CSD is real and yr exercises in Rajistan since 2004 then it was developed r no lie nor r our Azm e Nau exercises in 2010 and 2011.

Well let me explain u our response;;;

At the moment we r more then ready to deter any CSD type thrust in our territory As the core of CSD revolves around surprising the enemy and mobility. In Mobility we r well ahead of yr forces This was shown in these response exercises by us and in 2002 and 98 stand off Its more about who can reach border first and rapidly to defend/attack. So we can actually meet any challenge in IBG level attacks. Even if u still some how able to surprise us and launch attack with out our knowing or something like that then we may use nukes if the conventional counter attacks r not effective or our conventional capabilities r destroyed to such an extend that we r no more able to gain our lost territories back then Nasr's nuke version will come in picture. Its not like we will welcome u will a nuke.

3) This can be used in post WW2 scenarios as well because the formations will will engage them will have Arty support and in Arty the MLRs r also there and this test particular clear doubts about that as the Launch vehicle is very small then before tests so this means we can sneak it in actual battle formations and as it has shot and scoot capabilities so it can fire then can be relocated to avoid the enemy detection and also its range is just 60km which means it will definitely will be used with defending formation or close to them.

Im no expert maybe some more senior members can make u understand this.

4)It is a deterrence definitely but deterrence in the lower levels as well because tomorrow if we use full fledged nukes with some 1000kg warheads over just IBG attacks and their gaining of small territory doesnt justify our full fledged response in international levels we will be crucified by international community and UN if we do that. So to deter this we need to have a low level nuclear deterrent in the lower levels as well. And this Nasr will less then a Kiloton warhead is the justified option against a couple of IBGs or whatever u through at us.

 

[Alpha1]

I hope Pakistan wouldn't be foolish enough to try this. India will reply in massive numbers.. within 2-3 hours mushroom clouds everywhere in Pakistan and India has very aggressive nuclear policies too

Why only in Pakistan if I may ask ? @Alpha1 Show him a glimpse of what it looks like ...

okie dokie .... I won't give much spoilers though

@mrgreen that's how India looks after 100 nuclear detonations

lets assume a scenario
1 some terrorist attack occurs
2 where india kick starts cold start doctrine starts attacking pakistan
3 pak uses nasr on a vanguard Indian formation.(on pakistani soil)
4.for the fear of :MAD and international pressure india backs down from retaliating.

The thing is, fallout per yield by a TNW is more than that of strartegic warheads.
In combat situations distance between the opposing sides is not big to evade this fall out (since the pak doctrine xpects the use of TNW in its own territory) once u attack the opposing side with a tnw. so in a sense pakistani nuclear doctrine should have assumed sacrificing some of army formations or population centers since u cant always xpect indan army formations in open thar desert to attack pakistan so that u could bring ur nasr's and fire at em . what would u do if they quickly grab population centers ...will u still fire u r nasr??

Thats why it will be most probably be an Airburst........
to maximize blast effects and minimize fallout

 

[erwineugene]

okie dokie .... I won't give much spoilers though

@mrgreen that's how India looks after 100 nuclear detonations

Thats why it will be most probably be an Airburst........
to maximize blast effects and minimize fallout

haha time to agree pakistanis do better photoshop than us by the way u missed our kashmir

 

[Alpha1]

haha time to agree pakistanis do better photoshop than us by the way u missed our kashmir

We will not use strategic weapons in our own land

 

[erwineugene]

l

We will not use strategic weapons in our own land

last time i thought i heard that pak want kasmir to be independent now you want that tooo

 

[Secur]

Does not it apply to you as well ? If you can fire once without thinking about the retaliation then what made you think that we will think about it

Because , our thresholds would have been crossed , when we fire a TNW to deter further military adventure from India , unless of course you believe that Islamabad will fire a nuke at the drop of hat - when the first Indian soldier crosses the Border , the same isn't true for you since the destruction of some CBG's/Armored Brigade as envisioned in the Cold Start doctrine by Nasr or any other Tactical Nuclear Weapon , doesn't cross any Indian threshold . The territorial integrity and the existence of Pakistan would be at stake , not so for India . Hence , the best way to ensure that the " not clearly defined " thresholds of Pakistan aren't crossed and results in nuclear strike and subsequent Mutually Assured Destruction , is to not cross the border in the first place - something which your country has tried for three times and backed off , due to the nuclear threat . 

haha time to agree pakistanis do better photoshop than us by the way u missed our kashmir

Its actual simulation , where does photoshop come in between ? Backed by actual facts and figures and that is only of hundred detonations on most populous Indian cities . Pakistan's stockpiles are currently at 120 and counting .

 

[erwineugene]

Because , our thresholds would have been crossed , when we fire a TNW to deter further military adventure from India , unless of course you believe that Islamabad will fire a nuke at the drop of hat - when the first Indian soldier crosses the India , the same isn't true for you since the destruction of some CBG's/Armored Brigade as envisioned in the Cold Start doctrine by Nasr or any other Tactical Nuclear Weapon , doesn't cross any Indian threshold . The territorial integrity and the existence of Pakistan would be at stake , not so for India . Hence , the best way to ensure that the " not clearly defined " thresholds of Pakistan aren't crossed and results in nuclear strike and subsequent Mutually Assured Destruction , is to not cross the border in the first place - something which your country has tried for three times and backed off , due to the nuclear threat . 


Its actual simulation , where does photoshop come in between ? Backed by actual facts and figures and that is only of hundred detonations on most populous Indian cities . Pakistan's stockpiles are currently at 120 and counting .

if it is actual simulation tell me how u r able to put a nuke in port Blair ??

 

[Secur]

Why do Pakistanis assume so much ? They think that they will NASR on our forces and we will not retaliate with full force. They assumed it in 1965 that they will attack Kashmir and engage us there and We will not open another front.We did it from Punjab and Rajasthan.They assumed it again in 1971 and lost half of their territory.They did not learnt anything and make their assumption in Kargil war.They lost it again..Now they are again assuming and they will be annihilated this time.

We aren't assuming anything here , you can go that route and endanger your whole population if you want , after committing the blunder of crossing the border , but we will not guarantee the results . Forget the past , the fourth generation warfare is different , learn something about different " nuclear doctrines " . So why haven't you annihilated Pakistan if you are so capable of doing so , in '87 , '99 , '01 and recently '08 ? Do you not know something , your army's top brass know very well ?  

OK Sir you will nuke our soldiers and we will surrender. You will act like USA and we will act as Japan. We will request you to end this war and you will snatch Kashmir from us.You really are a think tank. Good Night Sleep tight. 

No , you will either back off from further misadventure or endanger your population with " Mutually Assured Destruction " . I thought I was talking to a person who knew something , about these things . It appears that I had been wasting my time .

 

[genmirajborgza786]

There is no irony or a sense of skewed priorities here for there is no comparison between what the testing of a battlefield missile is supposed to mean & what a space launch is supposed to !

If it were thus : You sent a mission to Mars & we tested a battlefield missile in a tit-for-tat response to that then the comparison would hold some weight but why see a correlation when there isn't any ?

well said bro

 

[Secur]

if it is actual simulation tell me how u r able to put a nuke in port Blair ??

Why ? Its in India right ? Andaman and Nicobar Islands ? Is Port Blair out of the range of Pakistani missiles ? What is the range of Shaheen-2 ? Find it out . After you learn about it , go research what happens to the range of the missile , when the payload is reduced , because after all Port Blair isn't such a big city .

 

[erwineugene]

Why ? Its in India right ? Andaman and Nicobar Islands ? Is Port Blair out of the range of Pakistani missiles ? What is the range of Shaheen-2 ? Find it out . After you learn about it , go research what happens to the range of the missile , when the payload is reduced , because after all Port Blair isn't such a big city .

its 3077.066 km from karachi (taking the southern most city) to port blair and wiki reported range of shaheen 2 is 2500km .. now u r turn