Pakistan buys 40 T-129 ATAK helicopters worth 2 billion $ along with 1 million assault rifles.

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

I have the exact same sentiments. It would be logistical nightmare to maintain all these platforms.

No who said it would be Logistical Nightmare ?

Platform already exist
1. Cobras (70's , 80's . 00's and Present) we already do all repair work locally
2. Bell Transport Choppers already a efficient process in place for repair (Trusty workhorse)
3- Mi-19 , again we keep these Helicopter Ships running smoothly with regular maintenence we already have experience of 7-10 years with this platform


Now the new platform:

1- Z-10 , we have the brand new helicopters 5 years warrenty and we have people getting trained on it, we had these for 1.5-2.0 years ?

2- T-129, we anticipate a training for new platform and we plan to hire brand new Young Engineers to develop new generation of engineers to look after the choppers

3- Mi-35 , Gunship Transport Choppers , we are obviously looking to gain maintenence deal for these items but every
one knows Russian equipment is a bit more easier to maintain

4- Super Cobras , obviously new machine need some training, but perhaps some old Cobra engineers would be able to pick up stuff on new machines and pass knowledge to others


Reality :
Old Cobras will have to be retired some time soon, max we can use it for 5 years not more it is what it is and that is why we tried to get Super Cobras

You see since we already operate similar technology from parent country , it is not as if we are bringing in a new item we know 0% about

Mi-19-> Mi-35 , some similarities
Cobra -> Super Cobra , obviously same type of mindset and approach in engineering

Z-10 -> Obviosuly new item
T-129 -> Obviously new item

But with some dedicated training and may be 2-4 years of good hard work some folks will get really good at it

An Aeronautical Department for Choppers , which would specialize in all matters concerning Choppers would certainly be a nice Add on



But Certainly , it would be a fantastic Solution

Focus Military
40 T-129 (Should be the Prime Choice)
40 Z-10 (Should be the Prime Choice) as well as it is a capable platform has the goods

(Option for Extras 10-15 Units down the road)

SSG/Navy
15 Super Cobras (Special Ops / Navy / Anti Terror)
15 Mi-35 (Special Ops . Anti Terror) - SSG Unit

Bell / AW139 / Mi-19 for Transport / Rescue / Logistics

50 Standard Cobras , likely heading for retirement by 2020 we might salvage 10 or 20 units if needed but need to upgrade tech

 

[Naif al Hilali]

Yep. The issue with engine MRO is that we will have to talk to LHTEC - i.e. Honeywell and Rolls-Royce - directly.

TAI seems to have gotten the export licenses for the engines relatively recently, which is probably a big reason why we've seen a serious resurgence in talks over the T-129 between TAI and PA.

But MRO is a whole other ball game and it isn't something TAI has a right to promise, not without express permission and means given to them by LHTEC.

Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

Rolls-Royce and Snecma have historically proven to be quite capable of selling to (almost) whomever they want, and support seems to have been source-able even in times of conflict.

Honeywell and Allison depend on US government approval, but the lower-tech nature of their products and a wide global manufacturing base (for older-generation engines, specially) make them better partners than Pratt & Whitney and General Electric.

However, you are right, the American equipment is the main deal-breaker for the Turkish helicopter. Pakistan would love to have 50 AH-1Z Vipers but those ---- things are nearly as expensive as the other Viper (F-16), and we don't know if even the 15 ordered will see the light of a Pakistani dawn.

Even if we get enough AH-1Zs, it would be wise to source (no more than) one more option that can utilize munitions from a friendly country. This is where the Z-10 trumps everything. So, what if you can't turn and burn, you can still launch weapons and high-tail it out of there. This isn't a dogfight (playing devil's advocate here).

Also, the Pakistan Army does not, unfortunately, seem to view its aviation arm with the same strategic vision as the Air Force - in terms of reducing logistical infrastructure and maintaining hardware (see the Mi17s and the US view on AH-1F/S upkeep by Pakistan Army Aviation). Sometimes leads you to think that helicopters are viewed as just flying tanks and APCs by the top brass.

Anyway, I hope all my observations are incorrect and Pakistan Army's thinking is much deeper than my shallow thoughts.

Hifz u kum Allah

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

If we had luxury of Standardization

Heck 200 Bell, 50 storage
30 Chinooks
and 75 Super Cobras and I would be set for 20 years

However we live in a world where standardization is a tough challenge , and thus we have to diversify the assets to get the same rewards

Between 90's - 00's, we missed out on the chances to upgrade the Chopper fleet

T-129 & Z-10 are both amazing capable platform , and these could form a strong support unit for Military assets

Mi-35 has captured the imagination on the board since we heard about its possible arrival

 

[DesiWarrior]

No who said it would be Logistical Nightmare ?

Platform already exist
1. Cobras (70's , 80's . 00's and Present) we already do all repair work locally
2. Bell Transport Choppers already a efficient process in place for repair (Trusty workhorse)
3- Mi-19 , again we keep these Helicopter Ships running smoothly with regular maintenence we already have experience of 7-10 years with this platform


Now the new platform:

1- Z-10 , we have the brand new helicopters 5 years warrenty and we have people getting trained on it, we had these for 1.5-2.0 years ?

2- T-129, we anticipate a training for new platform and we plan to hire brand new Young Engineers to develop new generation of engineers to look after the choppers

3- Mi-35 , Gunship Transport Choppers , we are obviously looking to gain maintenence deal for these items but every
one knows Russian equipment is a bit more easier to maintain

4- Super Cobras , obviously new machine need some training, but perhaps some old Cobra engineers would be able to pick up stuff on new machines and pass knowledge to others


Reality :
Old Cobras will have to be retired some time soon, max we can use it for 5 years not more it is what it is and that is why we tried to get Super Cobras

You see since we already operate similar technology from parent country , it is not as if we are bringing in a new item we know 0% about

Mi-19-> Mi-35 , some similarities
Cobra -> Super Cobra , obviously same type of mindset and approach in engineering

Z-10 -> Obviosuly new item
T-129 -> Obviously new item

But with some dedicated training and may be 2-4 years of good hard work some folks will get really good at it

An Aeronautical Department for Choppers , which would specialize in all matters concerning Choppers would certainly be a nice Add on



But Certainly , it would be a fantastic Solution

40 T-129 (Should be the Prime Choice)
40 Z-10 (Should be the Prime Choice) as well as it is a capable platform has the goods

15 Super Cobras (Special Ops / Navy/ Anti Terror)
15 Mi-35 (Special Ops . Anti Terror)

Bell/ Italian Choppers/Mi-19 for Transport Role


50 Standard Cobras (Destined to be phased out Too much mileage or Storage), certainly capable choppers but age is age

If you go through the details of Zulus, you will be quite surprised how different these are from our current Cobras. Our current Cobras have their origins in the Vietnam era and the Zulus we have now on order are quite different beasts. What's the point of buying an expensive helicopter if it hasn't evolved in the last 4-5 decades. You know how good Americans are with keeping up their products updated with the latest technologies. Maintaining these new Zulus would definitely require a lot of learning curve and definitely a steady supply of spares in the future.

MI-35's are definitely great at what they are intended for and with all the firepower they provide with the additional capability of transporting troops give them an advantage no other attack helicopter has but this again is going to be a new capability for Pakistan and it would also involve a learning curve. Now Russians are not that good with after sale service and getting spare parts in time and good quality is always a challenge with them.

T-129 is an excellent attack helicopter and all the Turkish content ranging from all it's electronic components, armament etc gives a truly good partner but again, this is going to be a whole new capability for Pakistan and will involve spending a lot of resources. Pakistan is a country that is almost always struggling with having enough financial resources to fulfill it's defense needs. We need to consolidate wherever we can and not put our foot in too many baskets.

There is one thing that is seriously bothering me, which is the engine this helicopter uses. It's a British engine as far as I know that has content from Honeywell of USA and as far as my information goes, USA has the power to veto it's sale to any country. So if we are deciding to go this route, we have to tread very carefully and examine the possibility of US refusal to sell these engines, do we have an alternative if current engine for this helicopter is not available?

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...s-us-licenses--future-chopper-sales/30558633/

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

The price factor is also something huge , we do need numbers & price to match

T-129 & Z-10 offer us fire power and the stuff we need

Zulus Obviously a reputable machine which is why we are getting that as well but we don't get the numbers we seek, heck if we could exchange our old cobras for Zulus now that would be a deal
However the standard cobras will likely depatr once the T-129 or Z-10 starts to get inducted

MI-35 Just adds a new dimension to our tactical approaches so it makes complete sense to invest in that platform

But i will have to commend the folks making the decisions that they finally started to focus on Aviation Corps

a) Zulu Deal
b) Z-10 Arrival
c) T-129 Arrival
d) Mi-35 Positive Situation
e) Italian Transport Choppers

After we are done and dust settles I think we can say fiarly safely we filled the gap in 90's and 00' in this area of Military

The Chopper situation has just come down to fill the GAP , with most potent option we have
and T-129 And Z-10 bring quite a bit of qualities to the table the biggest plus being these platform will evolve for next 9 years

Plus we all know Z-10 is already part of Pakistan Forces

 

[echo 1]

This is truly great news for Pakistan, my only concern is the logistics behind so many different platforms coming form 4 different countries. Hope all of it works out, if it does I will consider Pakistan Military the supply chain masters of the world.

Regarding the Turkish rifle, not a big fan. We should go for SCAR, Bren, or something we are currently testing.

 

[Signalian]

For comparing the two we have to consider these things.
1. Which one has more advanced technology and better potential future upgrades?

They stand as good candidates.

2. T129 has Longbow type radar if i remember correctly. Does Z10 has that capability?

T-129 uses MILDAR, developed in Turkey.
Z-19 was seen carrying MW radar above main rotors. Havent seen Z-10 with MW radar so far. share if u have info or pics. Probably integration with Z-10 should be possible.

3. Which one can carry more ammo as z10 has 7000 kg max takeoff weight and t129 has 5000kg max but its empty weight is alot less too

Both can carry a number of weapons whether ATGM, A2A missile, rockets etc. Depends upon mission config.

Z-10 carries A2A missiles on separate points.

4. And offcourse the most basic question of all, Which heli will have uninterrupted supply of spares in the foreseeable future?

Both.

Missiles are not a problem as we can integrate turkish or chinese missiles on both helis.

Its a close competition between both.

 

[shah1398]

So is it formal start of a new beginning which was initiated by MLU program of PAF F-16s?

 

[alimobin memon]

is it confirmed respective members ?

 

[Zarvan]

This is truly great news for Pakistan, my only concern is the logistics behind so many different platforms coming form 4 different countries. Hope all of it works out, if it does I will consider Pakistan Military the supply chain masters of the world.

Regarding the Turkish rifle, not a big fan. We should go for SCAR, Bren, or something we are currently testing.

We are not going for MPT 76. No deal for T-129 or MPT 76 has been signed yet. @alimobin memon

 

[RIP Pak LAW]

No deal news on Pakistani sources yet.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

I oppose this purchase if we don't subsidize this deal. This is too much for Pakistan to pay. We are talking about billions. If we don't lower the price we should grant them at least very good ToT conditions. Did they mention a loan or something like that for Pakistan? This would be very helpful.

why ToT? is it that easy and simple? do we even have the spare manpower with expert knowledge to absorb it and use it? we are already getting good terms for it.
what is more practical is to offer 10 units completed and the rest assembled in Pakistan by setting up the infrastructure for repair, overhaul and maintenance (it can take years ) setting up entire shop in Pakistan is not only impractical but also expensive and at the cost of already setup factories in Turkey where they can build and send these units to us which we need now .. not in next 10 years.

i mean we are not talking about baklava recipe here

Sir, I agree with everything you wrote. My point was, that Pakistan, as a growing country, should push its vendor nations to provide some TOT. I have seen some Boeing parts made in Pakistan. Whether smaller or in a bigger capacity, Pakistan should attempt to make say 25% of these choppers internally or some components, etc. That way, you'll setup the basis of a future industry and will reap the benefits 10-15 years from now. Imagine if you had produced spares for the F-16's. How would the 90's have looked for the PAF? Much different than the reality. Thanks

that is all fine but the premise is

Turkey must sacrifice its technical know how at a discounted price to us. for which it spent time, money and countless man hours to achieve this marvel. such notion is not only selfish but insulting as well.

since you clarified so it is reasonable to ask Turks to help us develop overhaul and assembly of the copters which is fine (getting ToT for just 40 units is blasphemous in economic terms)

 

[Humble Analyst]

40 T129 attack helicopters for around $1.5 billion ? looks quite expensive

No it will D not Pakistan has made a deal for 18 cobras 1000 missiles and spare set of engines, with USA for 1 billion US$s

 

[Syed Taha Wajahat]

Search and rescue from attack helos? That's an odd capability to imply, @thrilainmanila is talking about the utility of the T-129 versus attack aircraft, which is a valid question, but I think is ultimately flawed and lacking depth. Asking if jets can do SAR when the helicopter in question can't (well can, but very limitedly. See below) is a misrepresentation of how these birds will be used operationally.

I did search and rescue during my time in the RNoAF. We used utility helicopters, not attack birds.

The AW101, NH90 and Sea King can all be armed for maritime patrol, but they are not purpose built attack helicopters like the T-129 or AH-1Z... were would you put a litter in an attack helo?

They don't have an internal hold that could safely carry injured persons like utility helos do.

It's possible to use an attack bird for SAR using an EXINT pod, but operationally no one does this. It's a waste of an attack helicopter when dedicated SAR and utility variants exist.

Oh, and you can do SAR from jet aircraft, it's just not a capability many (if any) use. Again, it requires the use of an EXINT pod.

See it's actually a real capability for attack helicopters and jet aircraft, but how many times have you seen on operating with such? Never right? Because when viable alternatives exist like the H-60 or AW101, why bother with this config?

The T-129 is a can opener that will never do SAR. While I don't agree with @thrilainmanila and recognize the difference in usage between a fighter aircraft and an attack helicopter, he's at least on the right track of thinking.

Leave SAR to the utility birds like UH-1, Sea King, A139 or NH90 and let the T-129 do what it does best.

i believe rescue dont only means pulling up people from a flooded area, in larger perspective rescue also means giving your ground troops air support when they are surrounded by enemies too. That type of rescue am talking about. Obviously you cant do it with fighter jets. am talking about rescue of ground troops from the dangerous situations.

 

[airmarshal]

This is an AMAZING news!! Very happy. Looking forward to this deal and ATAK in Pakistan colors.

Long Live Turkey.