Pakistan Army's VT-4 Main Battle Tank | Updates & Discussions

[Armchair]

How will you counter Manpads that will be present in very large quantities among you enemy???

Hi Haris, please allow me to answer in points:
1. Existence of manpads do not negate CAS missions any more than existence of ATGMs making tanks obsolete
2. If you follow Syrian news, you will notice manpads have largely been unsuccessful against fixed wing, but relatively more successful against helicopters dropping barrel bombs from height. This is because fixed wing is faster, shrinking effective ranges of manpads and having the ability to maneuver away more effectively
3. The standard NATO method, during the Cold War, when not only did they expect manpads but entire Soviet layered IADS. The method is to fly nap of the earth, pop up, fire, scoot. This is what the Harriers, A-10s, AMXs, etc were designed to perform.
4. I could further use DIRCM, which have become cheap and compact. Flares. Use drones to supplement and complement the CAS aircraft, distracting the enemy and overloading his ability to differentiate targets.
5. I could use the time of day and position of the sun. Manpads have a hard time when fired in the direction of the sun.
6. I could use altitude / distance and use standoff laser guided munitions.
7. I could fly at an altitude and drop cluster munition
8. I could drop mines in projected enemy vectors
9. I could use net-centric assets like VT-4 and Sh-15s to provide detailed data of enemy positions, real time, so artillery and other assets can take them out
10. I could use an onboard artillery spotting radar to find were the enemy artillery is, flanking their main force, take out their artillery
11. I could distribute my CAS and UAV assets sparsely along the entire Eastern front, thus avoiding large clusters and high frequency of flights in specific geographical areas, thus making it difficult for the enemy to predictably locate ingressing aircraft.
12. I could keep juggling tactics and strategies. For instance, I could randomly increase or decrease tempos and diversify vectors.
13...

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

How will you counter Manpads that will be present in very large quantities among you enemy???

A lot of modern airforces are turning towards these low cost,highly agile and potent turbo props below for CAS.

 

[Beast]

A lot of modern airforces are turning towards these low cost,highly agile and potent turbo props below for CAS.

They cannot install radar. Not very useful and too dedicated platform and one function equipment. Against low tech rebels, good enough. But against a proper armed forces. Its gonna waste money.

 

[Haris Ali2140]

Hi Haris, please allow me to answer in points:
1. Existence of manpads do not negate CAS missions any more than existence of ATGMs making tanks obsolete
2. If you follow Syrian news, you will notice manpads have largely been unsuccessful against fixed wing, but relatively more successful against helicopters dropping barrel bombs from height. This is because fixed wing is faster, shrinking effective ranges of manpads and having the ability to maneuver away more effectively
3. The standard NATO method, during the Cold War, when not only did they expect manpads but entire Soviet layered IADS. The method is to fly nap of the earth, pop up, fire, scoot. This is what the Harriers, A-10s, AMXs, etc were designed to perform.
4. I could further use DIRCM, which have become cheap and compact. Flares. Use drones to supplement and complement the CAS aircraft, distracting the enemy and overloading his ability to differentiate targets.
5. I could use the time of day and position of the sun. Manpads have a hard time when fired in the direction of the sun.
6. I could use altitude / distance and use standoff laser guided munitions.
7. I could fly at an altitude and drop cluster munition
8. I could drop mines in projected enemy vectors
9. I could use net-centric assets like VT-4 and Sh-15s to provide detailed data of enemy positions, real time, so artillery and other assets can take them out
10. I could use an onboard artillery spotting radar to find were the enemy artillery is, flanking their main force, take out their artillery
11. I could distribute my CAS and UAV assets sparsely along the entire Eastern front, thus avoiding large clusters and high frequency of flights in specific geographical areas, thus making it difficult for the enemy to predictably locate ingressing aircraft.
12. I could keep juggling tactics and strategies. For instance, I could randomly increase or decrease tempos and diversify vectors.
13...

We are talking about one of the biggest defence spender here not some rebels with no AD.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

A lot of modern airforces are turning towards these low cost,highly agile and potent turbo props below for CAS.

Good for COIN but not conventional war.

 

[PanzerKiel]

I kinda believe things might turn out different ..
My guess is that cold start doctrine will not happen or even work... and both countries will first fight it out in the air..the one who wins that will command further battles and ultimately the war..
Without air battle being decided the risk to armour advancement is too high..

In such case A10s/su 25 will not work you would need high performance jet that can fist counter IAF..

Drones armed with laser guided weapons should however work early on given their Long endurance and lower cost

This beleive that world might come to end the war is also flawed..historical it has not happened...
Therefore a long protracted war is possible ..
In such war the air battles will first be decided once that is decided the winner will push with armour assualt ...

This will all remain below nuclear threshold as till armour assualt loss of life will be low.
India is increasingly questioning the nuclear threshold(dangerously) anyway

In summary PAF needs to revamped so it can ensure that IAF doesnt attain airsuperiority over battlefield...after that armoured core should have independent assests for airsupports /denial (gunships/drones/SAMs) to ensure protection ...
If IAF does dismantle PAF early on then army gunships & drones will simply become target practice for IAF

A new doctrine, as a successor to CSD is now there. Has entirely different dimensions, challenges the best in all of us.

 

[Constantin84]

Dear, a separate thread is required for this gigantic task.

What do we have,? but time on our hands,nowadays

 

[PanzerKiel]

What do we have,? but time on our hands,nowadays

Not everyone, I must say .

A new doctrine, as a successor to CSD is now there. Has entirely different dimensions, challenges the best in all of us.

Reason for mentioning this thing is that, we shouldn't be discussing CSD that much, but on its possible derivatives so that we should arrive at the right conclusions. Focusing purely on CSD may not prove beneficial anymore.

A new doctrine, as a successor to CSD is now there. Has entirely different dimensions, challenges the best in all of us.

https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/496192-the-new-shape-of-cold-start

Just some cursory hints in there, but of course pure sources cannot be quoted.

 

[maverick1977]

Relax. India is getting about 600 tanks. 464 T90MS+118 Arjun MK1A

https://theprint.in/defence/army-se...the-most-potent-tank-in-its-inventory/380869/
https://thediplomat.com/2019/11/ind...illion-deal-for-464-t-90ms-main-battle-tanks/

Warthog is a bit expensive if you consider cost per flight hour besides unavailability... rightly said props are a better solution think, Super Tucano ...

K8 can be a great anti armor platform. leverage what pakistan already has..

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

K8 can be a great anti armor platform

You first need to maintain air superiority and take out IA's SAMs

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Pressurized by opposition especially Imran Niazi

Nawaz Sharif owns (and should own) every decision made during his government, just like Imran Khan owns (and should own) every decision made during his government.

I know it sounds simplistic, but that is how I view it. If you're going to run for, and win, the highest elected office in the land, have the courage and values to take responsibility for what happens under your watch .... or just resign.

I am really tired of all the excuses trotted out about 'dharna didn't let me do this ... Army didn't let me do this .... Khadim Rizvi didn't let me do this'.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

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Its Air defence System right? Its range according to net is 12 km. We have 15km FM 90

 

[Mumm-Ra]

Just some cursory hints in there, but of course pure sources cannot be quoted

It looks like it is based on the Brigade Combat Teams of the US. Their recent acquisitions of mobile heavy artillery also points to this direction.

 

[PanzerKiel]

It looks like it is based on the Brigade Combat Teams of the US. Their recent acquisitions of mobile heavy artillery also points to this direction.

Actually, IA Brigade level groups were there in CSD as well. But now, their mode, time and grouping has been changed.

IA was always lacking SP Artillery for their armored brigades which they are trying to make up now . It has nothing to do with their doctrine, but just an integral and required element which was missing.

 

[Inception-06]

Also we don't have much mobile Air Defence Assets for our ground forces. Our FM 90 only has 15 km whereas India's Akash has 30km range. MANPADs have lesser ranges

Only in this part, I can agree!