Pakistan Army's VT-4 Main Battle Tank | Updates & Discussions

[maverick1977]

Show Russians the Money and they will sell you everything. Ruskies don’t care about Politics anymore, they just go for where ever they can score a Good Buck.
It wasn’t politics that I can assure you.
If the Ruskies cared about Politics they wouldn’t have pitched their Front Line Combat A/C to PAF. T-90 deal was peanuts in front of that. PA went for the best machine. All trials conducted with full vigour and transparency(Indenters can always wield a certain amount of Influence as we see our Eastern Neighbour always handing out deals to the heaviest Briber-Even in the case for Rafales where the Numbers dropped to 36 from 118 while the cost remained more or less the same, Hire a good Financial Advisor from LSE or UC Berkeley he’ll tell you the numbers don’t add up. Call it off set or whatever, those who are into the business of Defence procurement know how much money can change hands for a deal. Ask the Indians who are based in Arab countries or those who are reps of Western Firms sitting in Arab countries pitching them Combat Equipment. Even their Royals take a cut. Fortunately the system of Pakistani Armed Forces is much transparent and fool proof. Hope it will remain the same. VT-4 outclassed T-90 in 7/10 categories. It will definitely add a major punch to our Armoured Corps while the Indian Armoured Regiments wait for their new TI sights which they burnt in the Heat of the desert during an Exercise(just a small example)

Good Job! Keep it up we need more people like you on Twitter who can protect the National Narrative and Counter Propaganda as well as project National Resolve.

yes my brother who is a Armored guy, is damn excited by getting VT4s. Spoke to him 2 days ago and he echoed what you said.. The machine will be integrated with Satellite links and can give real time situational awareness to the Central command like core HQ, div or brig, unit level. it depends how u want to diseminate information to it or ingest battle awareness from it.
imagine with drones in the skies feeding live enemy movement from far away, and tank formations devising tactics based on enemy real time movement..
Along with that, there are some next gen of DU units, Pakistan armor has the highest ratio of DU units than any force in the world, that should send shiver down to any leading tank in the world, whether m1A2, merkava 4, or challanger..
This tank God willingly will add decisive punch.. real quick on khalid2s. it will have a lot new enhancement coming by jointly working with turks .. did i say it out loud ??

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Ideally you are right. But what you say will be possible only if we have corresponding number of air assets (fighter, support, AWACS), more air bases, more pilots and more money. If we have everything in abundance, then which ground commander wont like to call in CAS, like the US do even to take out a small number of individuals. Costs of a single sortie of specialized aircraft is not that low.

PA doesnt ignore CAS, like everyone we would also like to have CAS as much as possible.

For those 100-200 LCH, you are then forgetting our AD assets. Somehow, you will find that AD and logistics are seldom discussed here on PDF, thats why people dont know about them, their AD and our AD assets, their organization, working and command articulation. You may get surprised by their capabilities. (Example, a single Gun Missile Regiment is enough to defend an area of 120 sq km)

As far as stingers on peak are concerned, once IAF lost MIG21, MIG27 and MI17, they stopped coming low and started high altitude bombing, so stingers on peaks achieved what was required out of them.

You may also like to go into the military concepts of Air Interdiction and Battlefield Air Interdiction. They will answer almost all your questions.


Our basic defensive layout caters for an all-arms assaults, it is made in a manner to absorb that assault before it reaches our sensitive area.



Their infantry (advancing in the open) will be dealt by our dug-in infantry, their tanks by our ATGMs grouped with infantry, their artillery by our own counter bombardment fire missions and WLRs, their CAS by our AD.

P.S. The great number of AD brigades and units we are having are not there just to fill our ORBATs, they will actually come in quiet handy.

Sir the problem is we dont have much Heli or AD assets. India will be having about 100+LCHs and 24 Apaches and we can't even have a deal signed for Gunships. Our Cobras are now begging us to get retired and we haven't got any Gunship deal confirmed. gunships are vital for Anti Tank Warfare

Also we don't have much mobile Air Defence Assets for our ground forces. Our FM 90 only has 15 km whereas India's Akash has 30km range. MANPADs have lesser ranges

 

[Armchair]

Since you brought up first gulf war ... it would be important to mention the role of A-10 warthog. The plane that decimated Iraqi tank columns. Simply put in this day and age one cannot be without CAS or found lacking.

300 UCAVs can perhaps provide serve whole of eastern frontier. Not only providing vital intel, they can help troops that are getting bogged down at any given location. Ofcourse future is for much greater unmanned support all the way to unit level.

Totally agree with your assessment. A-10s or Su-25s would be an incredible force multiplier for Pak armor. Specially in a netcentric environment which VT-4s can provide (supposedly). If you ask me, PA would grab any chance to get A-10s but your country wouldn't sell. I'd even go with A-1 Skyraiders or something similar.

If PA is cash strapped as implied by @PanzerKiel the solution lies in replicating a Mirage-like program of buying second-hand and overhauling / modernizing.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

yes my brother who is a Armored guy, is damn excited by getting VT4s. Spoke to him 2 days ago and he echoed what you said.. The machine will be integrated with Satellite links and can give real time situational awareness to the Central command like core HQ, div or brig, unit level. it depends how u want to diseminate information to it or ingest battle awareness from it.
imagine with drones in the skies feeding live enemy movement from far away, and tank formations devising tactics based on enemy real time movement..
Along with that, there are some next gen of DU units, Pakistan armor has the highest ratio of DU units than any force in the world, that should send shiver down to any leading tank in the world, whether m1A2, merkava 4, or challanger..
This tank God willingly will add decisive punch.. real quick on khalid2s. it will have a lot new enhancement coming by jointly working with turks .. did i say it out loud ??

Relax. India is getting about 600 tanks. 464 T90MS+118 Arjun MK1A

https://theprint.in/defence/army-se...the-most-potent-tank-in-its-inventory/380869/
https://thediplomat.com/2019/11/ind...illion-deal-for-464-t-90ms-main-battle-tanks/

 

[Arsalan]

could not say about Egypt or Iraq I posted the rumor which came to my knowledge ....


interest was genuine in fact in one interview of an official who was part of visiting Delegation to Russia hinted the purchase of multiple batches over the period .... but as per @Arsalan our discussion for T-90 was facing some issues regarding import of tank ammunition and spares parts [If I am not wrong]

Honestly, it got confusing! A friend of mine told me about a team of ammunition experts (not tank boys) going to Russia to work out of details of that T-90 deal. Must have something to do with ammunition we would go for or something like that. Anyway, the deal collapsed! I have been saying this ever since that there is very little chance of T-90s for PA. Again, i am not talking about from perspective of the tank guys here but the ones who are supposed to provide them firepower.

Two theories ...

- T-90 was negotiated but the discussion fell through due to no agreement from Pakistan for some of the clauses/ conditions because of this we never reached to the stage of testing

- T-90 was tested in Russia [though I have doubt about this theory/rumor]

Go with the first one,
ALWAYS go with the first one

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Honestly, it got confusing! A friend of mine told me about a team of ammunition experts (not tank boys) going to Russia to work out of details of that T-90 deal. Must have something to do with ammunition we would go for or something like that. Anyway, the deal collapsed! I have been saying this ever since that there is very little chance of T-90s for PA. Again, i am not talking about from perspective of the tank guys here but the ones who are supposed to provide them firepower.


Go with the first one,
ALWAYS go with the first one

So PA initially went for T90 instead of VT-4?

 

[Arsalan]

So PA initially went for T90 instead of VT-4?

I wont say "went for it". Multiple options were being looked at and it seems T-90s were one of those options.

 

[Armchair]

If you go through Ark Angel's posts, the T-90MS issue has been cleared up completely. He says they were in fact tested and found to be good, mentions metallurgy as better. Financing was the issue and overall value for the deal.

The only question I have is why not T-80Us. Switch the engine and you get roughly a T-80UD.

 

[LKJ86]

Totally agree with your assessment. A-10s or Su-25s would be an incredible force multiplier for Pak armor. Specially in a netcentric environment which VT-4s can provide (supposedly). If you ask me, PA would grab any chance to get A-10s but your country wouldn't sell. I'd even go with A-1 Skyraiders or something similar.

If PA is cash strapped as implied by @PanzerKiel the solution lies in replicating a Mirage-like program of buying second-hand and overhauling / modernizing.

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

Totally agree with your assessment. A-10s or Su-25s would be an incredible force multiplier for Pak armor. Specially in a netcentric environment which VT-4s can provide (supposedly). If you ask me, PA would grab any chance to get A-10s but your country wouldn't sell. I'd even go with A-1 Skyraiders or something similar.

If PA is cash strapped as implied by @PanzerKiel the solution lies in replicating a Mirage-like program of buying second-hand and overhauling / modernizing.

Warthog is a bit expensive if you consider cost per flight hour besides unavailability... rightly said props are a better solution think, Super Tucano ...

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

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Details?

 

[LKJ86]

Details?

PGZ-09 and HQ-17.

 

[Armchair]

Warthog is a bit expensive if you consider cost per flight hour besides unavailability... rightly said props are a better solution think, Super Tucano ...

Super Tucano $6-$10 million. VT-4 - $3 million. Su-25 - $1 - $10 million. Refurbished radial props like the A-1s probably less than 0.5 million. CJ-6s probably around 0.1 million.

 

[ziaulislam]

Totally agree with your assessment. A-10s or Su-25s would be an incredible force multiplier for Pak armor. Specially in a netcentric environment which VT-4s can provide (supposedly). If you ask me, PA would grab any chance to get A-10s but your country wouldn't sell. I'd even go with A-1 Skyraiders or something similar.

If PA is cash strapped as implied by @PanzerKiel the solution lies in replicating a Mirage-like program of buying second-hand and overhauling / modernizing.

I kinda believe things might turn out different ..
My guess is that cold start doctrine will not happen or even work... and both countries will first fight it out in the air..the one who wins that will command further battles and ultimately the war..
Without air battle being decided the risk to armour advancement is too high..

In such case A10s/su 25 will not work you would need high performance jet that can fist counter IAF..

Drones armed with laser guided weapons should however work early on given their Long endurance and lower cost

This beleive that world might come to end the war is also flawed..historical it has not happened...
Therefore a long protracted war is possible ..
In such war the air battles will first be decided once that is decided the winner will push with armour assualt ...

This will all remain below nuclear threshold as till armour assualt loss of life will be low.
India is increasingly questioning the nuclear threshold(dangerously) anyway

In summary PAF needs to revamped so it can ensure that IAF doesnt attain airsuperiority over battlefield...after that armoured core should have independent assests for airsupports /denial (gunships/drones/SAMs) to ensure protection ...
If IAF does dismantle PAF early on then army gunships & drones will simply become target practice for IAF

 

[Haris Ali2140]

Totally agree with your assessment. A-10s or Su-25s would be an incredible force multiplier for Pak armor. Specially in a netcentric environment which VT-4s can provide (supposedly). If you ask me, PA would grab any chance to get A-10s but your country wouldn't sell. I'd even go with A-1 Skyraiders or something similar.

If PA is cash strapped as implied by @PanzerKiel the solution lies in replicating a Mirage-like program of buying second-hand and overhauling / modernizing.

How will you counter Manpads that will be present in very large quantities among you enemy???