Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[Irfan Baloch]

16 missiles doesn't mean 16 atgms. For example, predator(MQ9A) has 7 hard points but can carry only 4 hell fire missiles. Also drones are not forclose air support. All the the targets can't be engaged with missiles only especially atgms,most often especially when supporting/engaging infantry unguided rockets and machine guns are more desirable

you are right. even for same weapons load the comparison is wrong.

for lack of term comparing MBT with an anti tank IFV is wrong.

drones are in no way a replacement or an alternative to a helicopter gun ship. its not there yet.
both have their own niche and uses.

the insistence over drones is due to lack of understanding. one day everthing might be AI controlled drones of a size of bombers and heavy gunships but we are not there yet

 

[MMM-E]

Deino

why are you laughing ?


Turkey has enough capability to develop its own ATAK-II heavy Attack Helicopter through T-129 Attack Helicopter

Turkey has its own technological capability to produce the main components of the Helicopters

-- fuselage
-- electronics and avionics
-- mission computer
-- Helicopter electronic warfare system
-- Infrared Counter Measure System
-- HELMET Integrated Display System
-- fire control radar
-- the main and tail landing gear
-- Engine
-- the transmission rotor
-- 20mm and 30 mm Gun with buried munition box
-- guided rocket
-- missiles

Turkey has 3 different Attack Helicopter projects 5 tons class T-129 , 6 tons class T-629 and 10 tons class ATAK-II

so T-629 and ATAK-II Attack Helicopter will be 100% indigenous including Turboshaft Engine


TURKEY was become Drone super power in the World .. ( The US , İsrael , Turkey and China )

and in a few years Turkey will become Attack Helicopter super power in the World ( The US , Russia and Turkey )


even Turkey develops unmanned and electric Attack Helicopter

 

[MMM-E]

What ECM systems these Turkish UCAVs has, please specify me??? and these SAMs you refer in your post haven't any modern version of PANTSIR/BUK/TOR and mostly outdated SAM systems (old version) in these wars

our enemy is getting state of art S-400 which have the capability to intercept all kind of targets From Ballistic Missiles to UCAVs/Precision munitions

And Attack Helicopters are also have IR suppressor systems for the defense against MANPADS ( all MANPADS IS IR GUIDED) and UCAVs have lack this feature

The UAE deployed latest version of PANTSIR Air Defense Systems in Libya to stop Turkish Bayraktar TB-2 UCAVs

but Turkish UCAVs won this battle ..... even Armenian S300 Radars could not trace Turkish Drones in Azerbaijan
and 6 S300 Air Defense Systems were destroyed by Turkish İsraeli Drones in Azerbaijan

also Turkish Drones destroyed hundreds of Tanks , Howitzers , IFVs , AFVs , MLRS , thousands of troops in Syria , Libya and Azerbaijan

Attack Helicopters can not do it



UCAVs can flight 24 hours day and night at 10.000 m altitude .... ( MANPADS have max 6.000 m altitude )

Attack Helicopters can flight only 3 hours and MANPADS easly can hit Attack Helicopters which flights at max 5000 m

Attack Helicopters have operational range of 500 km ..... UCAVs have operational range of 2.500 km

American STINGER MANPADS destroyed over 300 Soviet Helicopters in Afghanistan and Russians failed in Afghanistan



Attack Helicopters are nothing to compare with UCAVs

Attack Helicopters armed with only 8 km Missiles to fight against Tanks
and Attack Helicopters are easy targets for MANPADS , medium and high altitude Air Defense Systems

but Turkish AKINCI UCAV armed with 100km KUZGUN guided munitions to destroy even moving targets including Tanks , Howitzers , MLRS , also PANTSIR , BUK , TOR Air Defense Systems

Turkish AKINCI UCAV armed with 280 km SOM Cruise Missile to destroy Air Defense Systems such as PATRIOT , S300 , S400

also Turkish AKINCI UCAV armed with 8km MIZRAK and 30 km TEMREN anti Tank Missiles to destroy enemy Tanks , Howitzers , MLRS ,etc

even Turkish AKINCI UCAV armed with 25 and 60 km BOZDOGAN - GOKDOGAN air to air Missiles to destroy enemy Aircrafts , Attack Helicopters , UCAVs , etc



so Turkish UCAVs are game changer great machines ...... We prefer new warfare concept UCAVs instead of old warfare concept Attack Helicopter

 

[nomi007]

Hope Pakistan will play Afghanistan card.
2nd army chief have to discuss this issue and Ah-1z issue with his American counterpart and Zalmay Khalilzad.

 

[mingle]

Hope Pakistan will play Afghanistan card.
2nd army chief have to discuss this issue and Ah-1z issue with his American counterpart and Zalmay Khalilzad.

They are just post office nothing more

 

[GriffinsRule]

Here is what I think. There is no urgency within the PAA to get new gunships now that the war in the tribal areas is over. PA can afford to wait and that is what it is doing. If the need was as great as members here believe it to be, we would have ordered additional Mi-35s already by now. There's no looming war with India thus no urgency to get the AH-1Zs or T129s. Mind you it's only $s that's holding the Zulu cobras back.
PA is also not going to be buying Russian helps besides the hind. Even that was a piss poor decision and I wonder what was the motive behind it. Maybe corruption was part of it, or maybe at the time they thought Russia would get closer relationship going with Pakistan. There used to be talks of Putin visits and whatnot so maybe it was to test the waters. Either way, can forget any other Russian attack chopper types making their way over.
As far as Turks go, looks like we are waiting to get the engine cleared, which might happen. If it doesn't we can explore Z-10 again and decide where to go.
UAVs are not a replacement for helos and nor do we need Turkish drones in any large number. Invest in your own and support the Pakistani companies producing them. Also, their EW/ECM might be fine against old soviet tech in backwaters of Armenia or wartorn Syria, but India is another ballgame all together. And they will have both in-house and western systems alongside Russian. These drones won't last long in a heavily contested Indo-Pak environment.

 

[nomi007]

They are just post office nothing more

Bhai Bara ho ja.

we have to play Afghan card,

 

[SQ8]

Or, get rid of the slave mentality entirely and develop your own helicopters.

Ideally yes - but as pointed out by many in the industry, these opportunities came for Pakistanis and they either by complacency or vested interests let them go.

 

[ACE OF HEARTS]

If Z - 10 ME is the answer to the requests in improvements / enhancements made by PAA, to China, then why still T 129 is being pursued?

Are there still deficiencies in the improved Z 10 - ME?

Or are there HUGE kick backs INVOLVED in the T 129 deal, which is big enough to keep PAA in the loop, INDEFINITELY, even without a FOREIGN engine approval or LOCAL / INDIGENOUS availability?

 

[Deino]

Oh well, I'm indeed amused since there is again too much chest bumping and wishful thinking spiced up with wrong conclusions, but first of all, why again spamming the Pakistan Army T-129 thread with aims and hopes of the Turkish helicopter projects? It is irrelevant!

Turkey has enough capability to develop its own ATAK-II heavy Attack Helicopter through T-129 Attack Helicopter
Turkey has its own technological capability to produce the main components of the Helicopters

I highly question this since most items of this list is irrelevant as long as they don't have a fully certified and mature engine and with just the second prototype engine running since a few months I would beg to wait how reliable it is.

Turkey has 3 different Attack Helicopter projects 5 tons class T-129 , 6 tons class T-629 and 10 tons class ATAK-II

so T-629 and ATAK-II Attack Helicopter will be 100% indigenous including Turboshaft Engine

OMG, that's exactly the hubris most Western observers don't like and find amusing; Most countries are overloaded with one project running - just look at the UK Tonal, the Franco-German Tiger and Japan's projects, but Turkey can build THREE at the same time, each of them better than the other and in the end in the same league like the Apache and Ka-50 or Mi-28!

Come on - just like our Indian friends - get the T-129 ready running on an own engine first before claiming "Turkey will become Attack Helicopter super power in the World"!

TURKEY was become Drone super power in the World .. ( The US , İsrael , Turkey and China )

and in a few years Turkey will become Attack Helicopter super power in the World ( The US , Russia and Turkey )

Nope again ... indeed Turkey has a few impressive indigenous developments, but I won't rate "Drone super power in the World" ... so and ask others in the world!

even Turkey develops unmanned and electric Attack Helicopter

Again wrong, it is a testbed only, nothing special, nothing unique and as such not an all electric combat ready helicopter! Just a testbed.


But now - as in the MMU/TFX and Hürjet threads ... instead of claiming what will be in a few years, make your homework and bring the true indigenously powered T-129 flying, then we can talk about "Turkey will become Attack Helicopter super power in the World".

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Here is what I think. There is no urgency within the PAA to get new gunships now that the war in the tribal areas is over. PA can afford to wait and that is what it is doing. If the need was as great as members here believe it to be, we would have ordered additional Mi-35s already by now. There's no looming war with India thus no urgency to get the AH-1Zs or T129s. Mind you it's only $s that's holding the Zulu cobras back.
PA is also not going to be buying Russian helps besides the hind. Even that was a piss poor decision and I wonder what was the motive behind it. Maybe corruption was part of it, or maybe at the time they thought Russia would get closer relationship going with Pakistan. There used to be talks of Putin visits and whatnot so maybe it was to test the waters. Either way, can forget any other Russian attack chopper types making their way over.
As far as Turks go, looks like we are waiting to get the engine cleared, which might happen. If it doesn't we can explore Z-10 again and decide where to go.
UAVs are not a replacement for helos and nor do we need Turkish drones in any large number. Invest in your own and support the Pakistani companies producing them. Also, their EW/ECM might be fine against old soviet tech in backwaters of Armenia or wartorn Syria, but India is another ballgame all together. And they will have both in-house and western systems alongside Russian. These drones won't last long in a heavily contested Indo-Pak environment.

The Turks put aside money from their national budget to serve as credit for the T129 deal. We are stretched for credit, so until we free it up (by paying off other programs) or add to it (with a better economic picture), we're not going to be able to sustain new big-ticket contracts easily.

 

[MMM-E]

their EW/ECM might be fine against old soviet tech in backwaters of Armenia or wartorn Syria, but India is another ballgame all together. And they will have both in-house and western systems alongside Russian. These drones won't last long in a heavily contested Indo-Pak environment.

PANTSIR is newest Russian self propelled Air Defense System since 2012
and Turkish UCAVs won this battle against PANTSIR Air Defense System in Syria and Libya


İndian Army easly can destroy Attack Helicopters .... even MANPADS can do it .... even I am not talking about Russian PANTSIR Air Defense System

but İndian Air Defense Systems can not match with Turkish UCAVs ..... not even close
and Turkish UCAVs can hunt İndian Air Defense Systems , Tanks , Howitzers , MLRS , Troops in KASHMIR

even Turkish AKINCI UCAVs easly can hunt Indian Army AH-64 Attack Helicopters
4 Turkish AKINCI UCAVs to carry AESA Radar and 24 GOKDOGAN air to air missiles ( range of 60 km ) will be enough to destroy Indian Army 24 AH-64 Attack Helicopters


Attack Helicopters and Tanks are obsolete in front of Turkish UCAVs

Tanks are easy targets for Turkish UCAVs ....... soon Attack Helicopters also will be easy targets for Turkish AKINCI UCAVs

 

[MMM-E]

Oh well, I'm indeed amused since there is again too much chest bumping and wishful thinking spiced up with wrong conclusions, but first of all, why again spamming the Pakistan Army T-129 thread with aims and hopes of the Turkish helicopter projects? It is irrelevant!

Come on - just like our Indian friends - get the T-129 ready running on an own engine first before claiming "Turkey will become Attack Helicopter super power in the World"!

chest bumping and wishful thinking ?

keep laughing ..... We dont care about LOSERs


5 years ago , same guys like you said that Turkey can not develop UCAV

but between 2018 and 2021 Turkish UCAVs Bayraktar TB-2 , ANKA-S , AKSUNGUR , AKINCI amazed the world
also jet engine powered MIUS UCAV by 2023

as of 2021 , Turkey has more UCAVs than all Europe combined


Turkish UCAVs changed the game in Syria , Libya and Azerbaijan .... ( even Russia , Europe , İndia , Japan are dreaming about this UCAV technology )

and Qatar , Libya , Azerbaijan , Tunusia , Ukraine bought Turkish UCAVs .. also dozens of Countries wants to buy UCAVs from Turkey


sooner or later Turkish Attack Helicopters with Turkish turboshaft Engine will be exported to many Countries including PAKISTAN

dont worry , in a few years Everybody will see Turkish Attack Helicopters
T-129
T-629
ATAK-II
also unmanned and electric Attack Helicopter

 

[Deino]

Do me a favour! Let's enjoy together Turkey's high hopes and ambitions since without high hopes and ambitions you won't reach anything (best example is Germany, which is in fact a true mess!) but I prefer to remain realistic and until these "high hopes and ambitions" can be met, still a lot of time will pass by.

As such I'll be happy to be proven wrong and I'll celebrate with you for your countries then-achievements, but for now, the questions and unsolved issues are greater than what has already been achieved and countries with much larger budget and greater experience failed, so therefore please do not claim this all as already done facts.

 

[That Guy]

Pakistan and Turkey should join hands and take help from Ukraine in developing all sorts of engines. We would be biggest fools if we don't learn from this. Ukraine is best source for us to get engine technology. We need to go for it. Plus if we are going to buy Z-10 ME then it should be at least 60 of those beasts not just 30. It's time we focus on getting large numbers of attack helicopters and UAV.

@fatman17 @Sulman Badshah @Tipu7 @The Eagle @Hakikat ve Hikmet

With Ukraine's shattered economy, their defense sales are pretty much the only things keeping them afloat. What makes you think they'll willingly give up their knowledge on how to build reliable engines, thus creating competitors to their own companies? They'd be fools to do so.