Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[Gryphon]

Turkey followed the same approach in securing a deal for MKEK 155mm Panter howitzers with Pakistan in 2009. It is now produced in Pakistan by Heavy Industries Taxila.

@Ulla
So, Sir Usman Ansari has finally confirmed that Panter production has started at HIT..


Hope US Congress approves the export of LHTEC CTS800-4N engines to Pakistan. It will be great to see PAC manufacturing T-129s under license. This will also decrease its unit cost..

Well, if US offer something to Pakistan, then it can be better deal, because ATAK major components are either come from US or US based firms in Europe, specially engines.

The article itself mentions some things due to which Pakistan won't like to purchase AH-1Z Viper. The unit cost, operating cost, spare parts are all big problems. Forget their production by PAC, I think even if purchased, the US will deploy some guys to check the Chinese...

 

[cabatli_53]

Turkey Pushes T-129 Gunships for Pakistan, but US Could Scupper Deal | Defense News | defensenews.com

Turkey Pushes T-129 Gunships for Pakistan, but US Could Scupper Deal


Turkish officials confirmed talks have “matured to a certain extent,” and Turkey remains committed to any possible deal, not only for financial benefits but also potential strategic gains.

“We see that both countries are keen to cooperate,” said one senior procurement official in Ankara. “We have a longer-term vision over any deal. We do not aim to win just one foreign contract but also view spillover benefits for the local industry. The Pakistani market may win international recognition for the T-129 and pave the way for future contracts.”

That's a clear cooperation and ToT offer for some workshares which will be manufactured for domestic-future contacts by Pakistani industry. With this way, Source indicates that Pakistan gonna be internationally declared manufacturer for the T-129 Atak.

 

[That Guy]

That's a clear cooperation and ToT offer for some workshares which will be manufactured for domestic-future contacts by Pakistani industry. With this way, Source indicates that Pakistan gonna be internationally declared manufacturer for the T-129 Atak.

It's odd though, would the PA still go for it knowing that the US may end up either blocking the deal or sanctioning them after the purchase?

One thing I'll make clear, Pakistan is NOT going to go for a US heli unless it make certain guarantees (which it won't), and even then domestic pressure right now would suggest that any deal with the US will fall through, no matter how much in favor it is towards Pakistan.

Though, I have to say that even the deal with the T-129 is risky because some parts come from the US, but I still say that despite the risks, PA should go for the T-129. Though I'm not so sure that the PA see it that way, but if Pakistan can get a comprehensive ToT that covers enough for Pakistan to potentially be able to maintain and even develop the heli on it's own, then it will be worth going through with the deal, because Pakistan wouldn't have to worry about the sanctions as much, but even then some part are just going to be impossible to get ToTs on (engines as a good example of this).

THE MAIN PROBLEM however is the cost. According to sources, PA is getting an absolutely amazing deal with the T-129 with local production, but the maintenance costs have to be absurdly high. Unless Pakistan can some how financially benefit from this deal, I doubt that Pakistan will be able to eat the long term costs of maintenance.

 

[That Guy]

Well, if US offer something to Pakistan, then it can be better deal, because ATAK major components are either come from US or US based firms in Europe, specially engines.

There are problems with both the US offer and Turkish offer, but with Turkey, even if the parts are US, Pakistan still gets ToTs and domestic production to secure the long term maintenance parts of the helis. Now add to all that 3 free T-129s, Turkey's offer blows the US offer out of the water.

 

[HAIDER]

There are problems with both the US offer and Turkish offer, but with Turkey, even if the parts are US, Pakistan still gets ToTs and domestic production to secure the long term maintenance parts of the helis. Now add to all that 3 free T-129s, Turkey's offer blows the US offer out of the water.

Still need US-EU approval to sell the engine and engine parts to Pakistan.

 

[That Guy]

Still need US-EU approval to sell the engine and engine parts to Pakistan.

US, not EU.

The US won't deny Turkey, it's relations are too important for the US. Turkey is not a part of the EU, so it has no obligations to follow EU arms protocols, and the funny thing is that even EU nations such as France and UK don't follow EU protocols.

 

[SQ8]

US, not EU.

The US won't deny Turkey, it's relations are too important for the US. Turkey is not a part of the EU, so it has no obligations to follow EU arms protocols, and the funny thing is that even EU nations such as France and UK don't follow EU protocols.

Another pertinent point is that the Honeywell TFE731 Turbofan that powers the K-8 also comes from the US. So it simply depends on the US Congress on whether they authorize the DSCA to release the particular technology to the US. It was also the very same Congress the did not allow the MLU to be carried out in Pakistan and still imposes strict monitoring measures on the MLU being carried out at TAI.

 

[That Guy]

Another pertinent point is that the Honeywell TFE731 Turbofan that powers the K-8 also comes from the US. So it simply depends on the US Congress on whether they authorize the DSCA to release the particular technology to the US. It was also the very same Congress the did not allow the MLU to be carried out in Pakistan and still imposes strict monitoring measures on the MLU being carried out at TAI.

Of course, but that doesn't mean they'll deny Turkey an export licence. Pakistan and Turkey are held at different standards simply because of the geopolitical and geostrategic locations. Pakistan, being close to China, isn't trusted enough for congress to say that Pakistan won't show China it's technology; Meanwhile, Turkey is a long time ally and has proven it's worth in helping the US and NATO in military operations.

Basically, what I'm saying is that the engine is going to come to Pakistan through Turkey, not directly from the US. It's the same principle as Russia is doing with the RD-93 jet engine engine which goes through China to get to Pakistan.

 

[Inception-06]

@Ulla
So, Sir Usman Ansari has finally confirmed that Panter production has started at HIT..

So sad, that everyone is still thinking HIT is producing the Panthers, HIT never did show any produced piece of this Panthers since 2009, they always show everything on Ideas defence exhibitions from 9mm Gun too Shaheen II 2500 km missiles, but we never did see asingle Panther PRODUCED by HIT. I will not buy this unconfirmed Story also not by Usman, still our Troops will be shown with it or be equipped with this Panthers, may be they wanted start the production, but the lack of funds did not allow it.

 

[khanasifm]

Another pertinent point is that the Honeywell TFE731 Turbofan that powers the K-8 also comes from the US. So it simply depends on the US Congress on whether they authorize the DSCA to release the particular technology to the US. It was also the very same Congress the did not allow the MLU to be carried out in Pakistan and still imposes strict monitoring measures on the MLU being carried out at TAI.

Honeywell TFE731 Turbofan is a commercial product and not a defense product which are under ITAR, it still requires commercial products export regulation Export Administration Regulations (EAR) - BIS approval

 

[SQ8]

Honeywell TFE731 Turbofan is a commercial product and not a defense product which are under ITAR, it still requires commercial products export regulation Export Administration Regulations (EAR) - BIS approval

Many engines of the Rotax series also fell under EAR but was banned for export to Pakistan(unless that has changed).
Hence, my point that release of any American component comes under the control of the US in any deal regarding the T-129 and may be changed at the whim of the US house of representatives.

 

[Safriz]

TAI will have to go the JF-17 way..
The helo should be able to slot in some other engine if the American engine is baned...

 

[That Guy]

TAI will have to go the JF-17 way..
The helo should be able to slot in some other engine if the American engine is baned...

The engine will get to Pakistan through Turkey, so it doesn't matter what the US does. They may ban Pakistan, but they won't reject Turkey and Pakistan will get the engines through Turkey anyways.

The Turks helped Pakistan with the F-16s during the 90s sanctions, they'll certainly help Pakistan with this.

 

[Safriz]

The engine will get to Pakistan through Turkey, so it doesn't matter what the US does. They may ban Pakistan, but they won't reject Turkey and Pakistan will get the engines through Turkey anyways.

The Turks helped Pakistan with the F-16s during the 90s sanctions, they'll certainly help Pakistan with this.

Such important defence procuremenrs are based of solid contracts and legally binding assurances...Not ''brotherly relations'' and ''Help''.
TAI is a Business entity...not Pakistan's ''Tai amma''.
It will have to be made sure what export right they have from engine manufacturers Rolls royce and Honeywell.

 

[Safriz]

And Lets not forget that Pakistan Didnt get VERA-E or any version of VERA from Czech republic due to USA meddling....
So anything coming from USA is even more prone to be meddled with and banned for Pakistan.