Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[Inception-06]

Some gents were argumenting to buy the T-129 and not the Chinese Helicopter because "Turkey will give us also spare parts when we will come under sanctions, like they did it with our F-16 in the past......" ............ Thats wrong if Turkey would have been so good in that case, than we would not had this situation in the Kargil war 1999:""After one week of CAPs, the F-16 maintenance personnel indicated that war reserve spares were being eaten into and that the activity had to be ‘rationalised’," And that proves that the Turks could not help us in Kargil war 1999 by providing us with spare parts for the F-16.

 

[That Guy]

Some gents were argumenting to buy the T-129 and not the Chinese Helicopter because "Turkey will give us also spare parts when we will come under sanctions, like they did it with our F-16 in the past......" ............ Thats wrong if Turkey would have been so good in that case, than we would not had this situation in the Kargil war 1999:""After one week of CAPs, the F-16 maintenance personnel indicated that war reserve spares were being eaten into and that the activity had to be ‘rationalised’," And that proves that the Turks could not help us in Kargil war 1999 by providing us with spare parts for the F-16.

Uh no.

Turkey had no obligation to help us and get involved in a war, nor should they be blamed for staying away. The fact that they ignored sanctions from their closest ally (US) to help Pakistan is enough to prove that they're reliable partners and suppliers.

 

[Inception-06]

Uh no.

Turkey had no obligation to help us and get involved in a war, nor should they be blamed for staying away. The fact that they ignored sanctions from their closest ally (US) to help Pakistan is enough to prove that they're reliable partners and suppliers.

According to Kaiser Tufail.......the Indian Air Force did get Help form Israel during Kargil war, so why Israel was not involved in war ^^ ?

 

[That Guy]

According to Kaiser Tufail.......the Indian Air Force did get Help form Israel during Kargil war, so why Israel was not involved in war ^^ ?

The reason why Israel may have helped India is because Israel has an invested interest to see Pakistan fail. Pakistan is the only credible threat to Israel. Hamas, Hezbullah, the Arab nations, Iran, these are all nuisances to Israel. Pakistan is the only one that can effectively challenge Israel like it proved during the Arab Israeli war of 67. By 1999, Pakistan was a nuclear state, which made it even more of a threat.

 

[Nishan_101]

Really running this thread is useless rather start up a threat regarding JV with China on Attack and Transport helicopter.

 

[帅的一匹]

How long can the T-129 stay in air and how long the Tucano ? K-8 cant do that job ! I did read hours about (K-8 and Turbo-prop-aircrafts) the discussions here in this from and in our both brother forums pakdef.info and ********************* the result of this discussions was that the Tucanos are CHEAPER and more effective for PAKISTAN in Coin and close air support operations.

I think paf could consider both T129 and WZ10 at the same time, neither of them is a must.

 

[A1Kaid]

I think paf could consider both T129 and WZ10 at the same time, neither of them is a must.

I think the problem with that is trying to integrate two different attack helicopter platforms simultaneously maybe too difficult and too costly. Two separate lines of parts, training, physics, mechanics, are involved.

 

[Kompromat]

I think paf could consider both T129 and WZ10 at the same time, neither of them is a must.

PAF doesn't operate attack helos, only the Army aviation does.

 

[itaskol]

WZ10 dosent have export version till now.

 

[Inception-06]

The reason why Israel may have helped India is because Israel has an invested interest to see Pakistan fail. Pakistan is the only credible threat to Israel. Hamas, Hezbullah, the Arab nations, Iran, these are all nuisances to Israel. Pakistan is the only one that can effectively challenge Israel like it proved during the Arab Israeli war of 67. By 1999, Pakistan was a nuclear state, which made it even more of a threat.

So I was right with my post !

 

[That Guy]

So I was right with my post !

No, because Turkey doesn't have any real vested interest to see Pakistan succeed or fail, whereas Israel considers Pakistan as one of it's greatest threats.

Difference.

 

[S.U.R.B.]

A view from inside.

As you guys must be busy in finding the answer to the question that i had posted before on this thread.I thought why not gather few of the cockpit snaps for the interested audience.

 

[HAIDER]

Pakistan should consider Mangusta A129, already in production .

 

[ANG]

Turkey Pushes T-129 Gunships for Pakistan, but US Could Scupper Deal | Defense News | defensenews.com

Turkey Pushes T-129 Gunships for Pakistan, but US Could Scupper Deal

ISLAMABAD AND ANKARA — Turkey is aggressively lobbying to give T-129 attack helicopters to Pakistan to replace its aging AH-1F fleet and is prepared to agree to generous terms with cash-strapped Pakistan to do so, according to sources.

However, the US could sink the deal and make a counteroffer of helicopter gunships to Pakistan that could be too good to refuse.

Pakistani media reports state a deal with Turkey could lead to local production of the T-129 at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), but speculation that preparations are already underway to build a new helicopter production facility there could not be confirmed.

Turkey made its latest push during Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif’s Sept. 16-18 visit to Turkey for the Third High Level Cooperation Council meeting. Sharif was given a demonstration of the T-129’s capabilities and a potential deal was discussed.

Turkish officials confirmed talks have “matured to a certain extent,” and Turkey remains committed to any possible deal, not only for financial benefits but also potential strategic gains.

“We see that both countries are keen to cooperate,” said one senior procurement official in Ankara. “We have a longer-term vision over any deal. We do not aim to win just one foreign contract but also view spillover benefits for the local industry. The Pakistani market may win international recognition for the T-129 and pave the way for future contracts.”

The official declined to comment on the modality of any deal.

However, a Pakistani source familiar with the negotiations said Turkey had offered to gift three T-129 helicopters to Pakistan with 2,300 items of spares. The T-129 variant in question was not clarified. The initial T-129A is being used for flight testing while the full specification T-129B is still under development.

Turkey followed the same approach in securing a deal for MKEK 155mm Panter howitzers with Pakistan in 2009. It is now produced in Pakistan by Heavy Industries Taxila.

However, a Turkish procurement official dealing with international agreements and financing voiced doubt over Pakistan’s ability to afford a deal.

“We know that Pakistan is not in the best financial shape. But this could be overcome with political will,” he said.

Salma Malik, assistant professor at the Department of Defence & Strategic Studies at Islamabad’s Quaid-i-Azam University, is uncertain, but not dismissive, saying this “depends on how and what kind of budgetary allocation the concerned offices have, and how they have outlaid it.”

A more serious potential obstacle, however, is obtaining US permission to export the LHTEC CTS800-4N engine powering the T-129.

A US industry source in Ankara said a US export license for the T-129’s engine would be critical. “This may require complex deliberations in Washington, involving many industrial and political parameters,” he said.

Brian Cloughley, former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, said Congress holds the key to the deal.

“It is most unlikely that either the White House or the Pentagon would attempt to deny an export license to Turkey for T-129 power plants and ancillaries, but the Defense Security Cooperation [Agency] is required to notify Congress of most proposed sales and obtain approval,” he said.

“Given the mood of Congress, it is extremely difficult to predict what they might or might not do. It takes only a couple of members or senators to demur, and the whole process could be halted. Everything depends on the political mood of the moment.”

Nevertheless, Turkey hopes the T-129 will be an export success.

In remarks carried by Turkish daily Today’s Zaman, Turkey’s procurement chief, Murad Bayar, said Sept. 23 that the T-129 attack helicopter “had strong export potential.”

The T-129 has been going through acceptance tests before deliveries for the Turkish military. Officials expect the first delivery to be made within the next few weeks.

“We may complete the delivery of the first nine helicopters by the end of the year,” Bayar said. “After these helicopters make their way into the Turkish inventory, I believe they will have strong chances for export.”

Azerbaijan is reportedly looking to buy 60 T-129 helicopters. Jordan’s King Abdullah, who was in Turkey in March, visited Turkish Aerospace Industries, co-maker of the T-129, and examined both the helicopter gunship and Turkey’s first locally-developed drone, the Anka.

Despite Turkey’s hopes, however, the US might try to tempt Pakistan with a deal for the AH-1Z Viper helicopter.

No one at the defense section in the US Embassy would comment on the matter, but details were confirmed by sources in Pakistan familiar with the deal.

Pakistan has been awarded US $300 million in foreign military financing for FY2013-2014, which could be used to procure the Viper attack helicopters, made by Bell.

This is part of a wider deal discussed during US Deputy Defense Secretary Ashton Carter’s trip to Islamabad on Sept. 17.

Cloughley, however, does not believe Pakistan will be tempted.

“I do not think that Pakistan would be tempted to ditch the T-129 deal if there were an offer of Vipers. There might be a good deal proposed by the US, but operating costs are high and would [argue] against acceptance. Further, and probably more significant, there is decided and most strong opposition in Pakistan to further deals with the US.”

 

[HAIDER]

Turkey Pushes T-129 Gunships for Pakistan, but US Could Scupper Deal | Defense News | defensenews.com

Turkey Pushes T-129 Gunships for Pakistan, but US Could Scupper Deal

ISLAMABAD AND ANKARA — Turkey is aggressively lobbying to give T-129 attack helicopters to Pakistan to replace its aging AH-1F fleet and is prepared to agree to generous terms with cash-strapped Pakistan to do so, according to sources.

However, the US could sink the deal and make a counteroffer of helicopter gunships to Pakistan that could be too good to refuse.

Pakistani media reports state a deal with Turkey could lead to local production of the T-129 at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), but speculation that preparations are already underway to build a new helicopter production facility there could not be confirmed.

Turkey made its latest push during Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif’s Sept. 16-18 visit to Turkey for the Third High Level Cooperation Council meeting. Sharif was given a demonstration of the T-129’s capabilities and a potential deal was discussed.

Turkish officials confirmed talks have “matured to a certain extent,” and Turkey remains committed to any possible deal, not only for financial benefits but also potential strategic gains.

“We see that both countries are keen to cooperate,” said one senior procurement official in Ankara. “We have a longer-term vision over any deal. We do not aim to win just one foreign contract but also view spillover benefits for the local industry. The Pakistani market may win international recognition for the T-129 and pave the way for future contracts.”

The official declined to comment on the modality of any deal.

However, a Pakistani source familiar with the negotiations said Turkey had offered to gift three T-129 helicopters to Pakistan with 2,300 items of spares. The T-129 variant in question was not clarified. The initial T-129A is being used for flight testing while the full specification T-129B is still under development.

Turkey followed the same approach in securing a deal for MKEK 155mm Panter howitzers with Pakistan in 2009. It is now produced in Pakistan by Heavy Industries Taxila.

However, a Turkish procurement official dealing with international agreements and financing voiced doubt over Pakistan’s ability to afford a deal.

“We know that Pakistan is not in the best financial shape. But this could be overcome with political will,” he said.

Salma Malik, assistant professor at the Department of Defence & Strategic Studies at Islamabad’s Quaid-i-Azam University, is uncertain, but not dismissive, saying this “depends on how and what kind of budgetary allocation the concerned offices have, and how they have outlaid it.”

A more serious potential obstacle, however, is obtaining US permission to export the LHTEC CTS800-4N engine powering the T-129.

A US industry source in Ankara said a US export license for the T-129’s engine would be critical. “This may require complex deliberations in Washington, involving many industrial and political parameters,” he said.

Brian Cloughley, former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, said Congress holds the key to the deal.

“It is most unlikely that either the White House or the Pentagon would attempt to deny an export license to Turkey for T-129 power plants and ancillaries, but the Defense Security Cooperation [Agency] is required to notify Congress of most proposed sales and obtain approval,” he said.

“Given the mood of Congress, it is extremely difficult to predict what they might or might not do. It takes only a couple of members or senators to demur, and the whole process could be halted. Everything depends on the political mood of the moment.”

Nevertheless, Turkey hopes the T-129 will be an export success.

In remarks carried by Turkish daily Today’s Zaman, Turkey’s procurement chief, Murad Bayar, said Sept. 23 that the T-129 attack helicopter “had strong export potential.”

The T-129 has been going through acceptance tests before deliveries for the Turkish military. Officials expect the first delivery to be made within the next few weeks.

“We may complete the delivery of the first nine helicopters by the end of the year,” Bayar said. “After these helicopters make their way into the Turkish inventory, I believe they will have strong chances for export.”

Azerbaijan is reportedly looking to buy 60 T-129 helicopters. Jordan’s King Abdullah, who was in Turkey in March, visited Turkish Aerospace Industries, co-maker of the T-129, and examined both the helicopter gunship and Turkey’s first locally-developed drone, the Anka.

Despite Turkey’s hopes, however, the US might try to tempt Pakistan with a deal for the AH-1Z Viper helicopter.

No one at the defense section in the US Embassy would comment on the matter, but details were confirmed by sources in Pakistan familiar with the deal.

Pakistan has been awarded US $300 million in foreign military financing for FY2013-2014, which could be used to procure the Viper attack helicopters, made by Bell.

This is part of a wider deal discussed during US Deputy Defense Secretary Ashton Carter’s trip to Islamabad on Sept. 17.

Cloughley, however, does not believe Pakistan will be tempted.

“I do not think that Pakistan would be tempted to ditch the T-129 deal if there were an offer of Vipers. There might be a good deal proposed by the US, but operating costs are high and would [argue] against acceptance. Further, and probably more significant, there is decided and most strong opposition in Pakistan to further deals with the US.”

Well, if US offer something to Pakistan, then it can be better deal, because ATAK major components are either come from US or US based firms in Europe, specially engines.