Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[lcloo]

Looking at the comparative data, you would understand why Pakistan still prefer to wait for Turkey to deliver it's promise on engine development. T-129 which is derived from A-129 has beefed up with different engine of 2X the original engine power on A-129.

The climb rate of T129 is only behind AH-1Z and AH-64, which is quite impressive and suuits well in high mountain regions.

Then there is the warm relationship of Islam brotherhood between Turkey and Pakistan that matters a lot.

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

Some of the operational needs of the Helicopters have been taken over by UAVs. Although Hels are still important, but I have to say, Pakistan Army played its cards very poorly. Can't believe they (Pakistan, Turkey, etc) still have to beg every dic.k and harry for a suitable heli engine. Such a shame.

They can probably go with Chinese unmanned attack helicopter.

 

[CHI RULES]

The risk of an Indo-Pak war can be as early as tomorrow, so realistically, how many new attack helicopters (or tanks, SAMs, J-10s etc) are we going to have by then? This is the issue I have with this "urgency" thinking.

Our gov't and generals aren't doing anything to trigger a fight with India, and even when things escalate, we are trying to cool the situation. So, if this is the policy, why are we constantly draining billions of dollars for all these urgent needs, and not solve the long-term problem?

If we don't solve the long-term problem, then we'll always be stuck with, "urgent" near-term shopping lists. This way of doing things is costing us both in direct terms and opportunity costs (e.g., that money could've gone back into the economy via in-house programs).

Just to make a point, I brought up the idea of the South African "New Attack Helicopter" program in 2008 (I was 17-18).

Basically, a kid could come up with these ideas, and they'd still make sense. It's now been 13 years since I made that comment -- we could've FOC-ed this by now if our decision-makers had the vision and sincerity.

View attachment 725217

This was when ATE (the private company in charge) said it'll set-up a new helicopter industry in the partner country.

Official Al Khalid 2 Discussion

just so you people know, pakistan transferred some armour technology from al-khalid to Turkey for their next-generation battle tank. al-khalid is anything but a failure. there haven't been any exports because we are not exporting it as a whole right now, only certain parts. Sorry, I disagree...

defence.pk

@JamD @Falcon26 @GriffinsRule

Sir ideas should be realistic, the approach you are suggesting is same as Pakistan trying to do with T129 by entering in manufacturing process but ground realities should also be addressed with virtually limit aviation resources specifically related to limited overhaul it may take Pakistan even with JV to relize whole scenario at least 6-7 years if started now. On other hand now one may say that Pak has capable stuff with assumption of J10C induction in PAF, induction of long range ASHMS and CMs in PN and in case of ground forces they are always much better armed. However fact is that Pak Army Aviation officials views are on record that our Cobras have passed their useful life, even refurbished ones are also expensive to operate and keep them active, There have been some accidents reported in near past. They lack modern defensive capabilities and low service ceiling issues are there.

As per ground realities PA should go for some acquisitions at earliest even as news are there for extension of delivery time span up to six months by PA for T129 delivery. If deliveries start should be well enough on other side we should consider bitter realities of Past also as Indians were able to breach Pak air space effectively and launched spice missiles which by grace of Almighty remained unexploded meanwhile at least we should have some sort of AD on vulnerable points i.e short to medium range SAMs backed by some modernized anti air craft guns. We have faced some serious losses in the past let me start with Operation Trident, Salala incident after which Pak transported some AD resources near Afghan border etc. Minimal required effective resources should be there to respond even in defensive posture. Hope you understand my point.

 

[Reichmarshal]

The risk of an Indo-Pak war can be as early as tomorrow, so realistically, how many new attack helicopters (or tanks, SAMs, J-10s etc) are we going to have by then? This is the issue I have with this "urgency" thinking.

Our gov't and generals aren't doing anything to trigger a fight with India, and even when things escalate, we are trying to cool the situation. So, if this is the policy, why are we constantly draining billions of dollars for all these urgent needs, and not solve the long-term problem?

If we don't solve the long-term problem, then we'll always be stuck with, "urgent" near-term shopping lists. This way of doing things is costing us both in direct terms and opportunity costs (e.g., that money could've gone back into the economy via in-house programs).

Just to make a point, I brought up the idea of the South African "New Attack Helicopter" program in 2008 (I was 17-18).

Basically, a kid could come up with these ideas, and they'd still make sense. It's now been 13 years since I made that comment -- we could've FOC-ed this by now if our decision-makers had the vision and sincerity.

View attachment 725217

This was when ATE (the private company in charge) said it'll set-up a new helicopter industry in the partner country.

Official Al Khalid 2 Discussion

just so you people know, pakistan transferred some armour technology from al-khalid to Turkey for their next-generation battle tank. al-khalid is anything but a failure. there haven't been any exports because we are not exporting it as a whole right now, only certain parts. Sorry, I disagree...

defence.pk

@JamD @Falcon26 @GriffinsRule

You are spot with the fact that we are starring down the barrel vis a via india. But having said that we have very serious issues and limitations imposed on us in the 10 years of democracy post mush that destroyed our eco. brick by brick.
So much so that when nawaz left we were on the brink of bankruptcy.
both ppp n noon league in their respective tenures placed roadblocks in our local assembly which almost killed our local programs.

so coming from that to the present it is a miracle that we have been able to maintain a statue queue/ parity with the indians.

All in all things aren't as simple or straight forward as they seem

 

[truthfollower]

Same reason why military radios today still sound like someone is squeezing nuts versus normal cellular transmission - there are layers of robust compression and encryption designed to weather the most difficult of electronic environment

wow i always have this question in mind why military radio sounds so noisy. And don't you think special requirement for military equipment/technology is very thin now? As during operation swift retort when abhinand was captured you can hear in the background solider saying "sir i am going to send you video on whatsapp." Don't you think it is better to create technology for civilians and also use it for military applications too? Bigger market

 

[yacht07]

 

[Introvert]

TAI will equip its T129s with Ukrainian engines

Pakistan has granted an additional 6-month delay to the Turkish helicopter manufacturer
TAI. Indeed, since 2018, its T129 has been selected by the Pakistan Army Aviation (equivalent to the ALAT) to replace the AH-1F Cobra, and this at a rate of 30 units for a market of 1.5 billion dollars.
The T-129 is a Turkish licensed production of the
Italian A129 Mangusta combat helicopter .
Modernized locally, however, it benefits from the American-made LHTEC800 turbine engine, and since 2015, the United States has refused to export the said engine outside Turkey, making it impossible to fulfill the contract.
Pakistan has been lenient towards its partner, as other nations such as Qatar and the Philippines have already canceled their contracts.

Ukrainian engine
This embargo against Turkey has therefore forced its manufacturers to find alternative solutions to replace American engines.
Ankara thus turned to Ukraine, which has real know-how in this type of engine.
TAI announced on March 15, 2021 the signing of an agreement with an undisclosed Ukrainian consortium for the manufacture of engines with a power of 2300
horsepower.
But it would actually be Motor Sich.
These new turbines will also be fitted to the ATAK-2, the big brother of the T129 which is currently under development.

This action carried out for several months by Turkish diplomacy will allow Turkey to be able to export the ATAK-2 and T129 without hindrance.

Ankara exporte ses T129 vers le Pakistan - Turquie News

Ankara exporte ses T129 vers le Pakistan TAI équipera ses T129 avec des moteurs ukrainiens Délai de 6 mois Le Pakistan a accordé un délai supplémentaire (…)

www.turquie-news.com

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

TAI will equip its T129s with Ukrainian engines

Pakistan has granted an additional 6-month delay to the Turkish helicopter manufacturer
TAI. Indeed, since 2018, its T129 has been selected by the Pakistan Army Aviation (equivalent to the ALAT) to replace the AH-1F Cobra, and this at a rate of 30 units for a market of 1.5 billion dollars.
The T-129 is a Turkish licensed production of the
Italian A129 Mangusta combat helicopter .
Modernized locally, however, it benefits from the American-made LHTEC800 turbine engine, and since 2015, the United States has refused to export the said engine outside Turkey, making it impossible to fulfill the contract.
Pakistan has been lenient towards its partner, as other nations such as Qatar and the Philippines have already canceled their contracts.

Ukrainian engine
This embargo against Turkey has therefore forced its manufacturers to find alternative solutions to replace American engines.
Ankara thus turned to Ukraine, which has real know-how in this type of engine.
TAI announced on March 15, 2021 the signing of an agreement with an undisclosed Ukrainian consortium for the manufacture of engines with a power of 2300
horsepower.
But it would actually be Motor Sich.
These new turbines will also be fitted to the ATAK-2, the big brother of the T129 which is currently under development.

This action carried out for several months by Turkish diplomacy will allow Turkey to be able to export the ATAK-2 and T129 without hindrance.

Ankara exporte ses T129 vers le Pakistan - Turquie News

Ankara exporte ses T129 vers le Pakistan TAI équipera ses T129 avec des moteurs ukrainiens Délai de 6 mois Le Pakistan a accordé un délai supplémentaire (…)

www.turquie-news.com

No way the US allows Ukraine to export engine to Turkey. Turkey's defense industry is under CAATSA sanction due to S-400 purchase. US pressured Ukraine to nationalize Motor Sich, which will be fully under American control.

 

[eagleeye]

No way the US allows Ukraine to export engine to Turkey. Turkey's defense industry is under CAATSA sanction due to S-400 purchase. US pressured Ukraine to nationalize Motor Sich, which will be fully under American control.

Not this shit again you are spreading false information . how comes that we are still producing t129 chopper and manufacture the LHTEC CTS800-4N engines under licence for our army . and we still manufacturing Sikorsky S-70 Black Hawk utility helicopter under licence .Production of the type's General Electric T700 turboshafts will also be localised through Eskisehir-based TEI. The production of this engine is in progress.

TEI - T700-TEI-701D

tei.com.tr

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

Not this shit again you are spreading false information . how comes that we are still producing t129 chopper and manufacture the LHTEC CTS800-4N engines under licence for our army . and we still manufacturing Sikorsky S-70 Black Hawk utility helicopter under licence .Production of the type's General Electric T700 turboshafts will also be localised through Eskisehir-based TEI. The production of this engine is in progress.

TEI - T700-TEI-701D

tei.com.tr

They manufacture under license. The components must be delivered from the US before being assembled in Turkey.

 

[eagleeye]

You said Turkey's defense industry is under CAATSA sanction. If it so us would block any import of components .

 

[nomi007]

There are some possibilities that Turks will offer T-129 with a VK-2500PS-03 engine.
Which is equipped with FADEC for high and hot applications.

 

[khanasifm]

There are some possibilities that Turks will offer T-129 with a VK-2500PS-03 engine.
Which is equipped with FADEC for high and hot applications.

any new engine adoption, certification and testing would require time in years

by the way Turks need to clean up all products with US and EU components not just heli if they want to export

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The Turks will only use the VK2500 for the prototype T929.

 

[SQ8]

The Turks will only use the VK2500 for the prototype T929.

They are going the opposite approach to the JF - separate powerplant from the airframe.