Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[Gripen9]

The American sanctions are about its allies buying Russian equipment. Turkey being a NATO member has all authority under NATO agreement to buy its weapons from whichever source. Greece and Bulgaria have S-300. They are NATO partners. USA has been trying to be difficult with Turkey for various geopolitical reasons. Americans can look the other way, easily. Also, S400 is quite capable system and it cuts into potential Patriot sales and thats one of the reasons for these sanctions.

Didn't Turkey opt for S400 after being denied Patriots?

 

[Trango Towers]

Didn't Turkey opt for S400 after being denied Patriots?

Yes....and the white devil's didn't like the fact that Turkey took care of its own needs

 

[araz]

By the way, Americans still owe us CSF but as you know how they behave, we will get neither the money nor the helicopters.

Unless we get them by their Cahonas.
A

 

[nomi007]

Turbomeca Makila is best alternative engine for T-129.

 

[Gripen9]

Turbomeca Makila is best alternative engine for T-129.

French will not allow their engines on Turkish helos. If you haven't noticed that relationship is not on best footing these days.
A viable option can be Rolls-Royce Gem 1004 turboshafts that powered the original A129 Mangusta.

 

[T-SaGe]

A viable option can be Rolls-Royce Gem 1004 turboshafts that powered the original A129 Mangusta.

The engine that fails to meet the performance requirements and therefore causing whole helicopter to be revised again.

Right now, the alternatives are:
1a. Pakistan and Turkish governments could show theirs serious by putting pressure on the USA for accelerates the senate decision and paperwork .
1b. TEI-TS-1400 engine integration activities could start on T129 as soon as possible without waiting other certification processes over T-626.
1c. Whether it is Ivchenko or other, a suitable engine for the platform could identified and certified as soon as possible.
1d. Whether it is R&R or other european supplier, Pakistan can request the integration of the designated engine to the T129, taking the guarantee that there will be no obstacle through the US subsystem suppliers from these companies.

2a. Pakistan could supply of limited number of used helicopters as stop-gap solution.
2b. Canceling the program altogether and turning to Chinese or Russian suppliers.

 

[Gripen9]

The engine that fails to meet the performance requirements and therefore causing whole helicopter to be revised again.

Right now, the alternatives are:
1a. Pakistan and Turkish governments could show theirs serious by putting pressure on the USA for accelerates the senate decision and paperwork of FMS's Honeywell&RR engine export.
1b. TEI-TS-1400 engine integration activities could start on T129 as soon as possible without waiting other certification processes over T-626.
1c. Whether it is Ivchenko or other, a suitable engine for the platform could identified and certified as soon as possible.
1d. Whether it is R&R or other european supplier, Pakistan can request the integration of the designated engine to the T129, taking the guarantee that there will be no obstacle through the US subsystem suppliers from these companies.

2a. Pakistan could supply of limited number of used helicopters as stop-gap solution.
2b. Canceling the program altogether and turning to Chinese or Russian suppliers.

I was merely replying to the poster as to why Turbomeca will not be a source for Turkish helos.

 

[CHI RULES]

I think the 'urgency' of a new attack helicopter might have slipped with the relative drawdown of COIN/CT ops. So, the PAA might not be in a rush, and is willing to wait for a fresh crop of aircraft to evaluate, e.g., a modified ATAK with TS1500, T629, or an even improved variant of the Z-10ME.

Service life of Pak Cobra has already passed it shall be a great gamble or blunder I may dare to say if attack helicopters of some new version are not obtained in a year or two. The peace between India and Pak is very fragile. PA should not ignore attack helicopters as existing fleet is vintage and may prove to be of much lesser use in case of any major conflict.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Service life of Pak Cobra has already passed it shall be a great gamble or blunder I may dare to say if attack helicopters of some new version are not obtained in a year or two. The peace between India and Pak is very fragile. PA should not ignore attack helicopters as existing fleet is vintage and may prove to be of much lesser use in case of any major conflict.

The risk of an Indo-Pak war can be as early as tomorrow, so realistically, how many new attack helicopters (or tanks, SAMs, J-10s etc) are we going to have by then? This is the issue I have with this "urgency" thinking.

Our gov't and generals aren't doing anything to trigger a fight with India, and even when things escalate, we are trying to cool the situation. So, if this is the policy, why are we constantly draining billions of dollars for all these urgent needs, and not solve the long-term problem?

If we don't solve the long-term problem, then we'll always be stuck with, "urgent" near-term shopping lists. This way of doing things is costing us both in direct terms and opportunity costs (e.g., that money could've gone back into the economy via in-house programs).

Just to make a point, I brought up the idea of the South African "New Attack Helicopter" program in 2008 (I was 17-18).

Basically, a kid could come up with these ideas, and they'd still make sense. It's now been 13 years since I made that comment -- we could've FOC-ed this by now if our decision-makers had the vision and sincerity.

This was when ATE (the private company in charge) said it'll set-up a new helicopter industry in the partner country.

Denel is marketing its goods to Pakistan quite publically, just look at IDEAS 2006 & 2008. I am not referring to the AH-2 Rooivalk, but a newer design simply called "New Attack Helicopter". Please read its profile (LINK).

Official Al Khalid 2 Discussion

just so you people know, pakistan transferred some armour technology from al-khalid to Turkey for their next-generation battle tank. al-khalid is anything but a failure. there haven't been any exports because we are not exporting it as a whole right now, only certain parts. Sorry, I disagree...

defence.pk

@JamD @Falcon26 @GriffinsRule

 

[GriffinsRule]

The risk of an Indo-Pak war can be as early as tomorrow, so realistically, how many new attack helicopters (or tanks, SAMs, J-10s etc) are we going to have by then? This is the issue I have with this "urgency" thinking.

Our gov't and generals aren't doing anything to trigger a fight with India, and even when things escalate, we are trying to cool the situation. So, if this is the policy, why are we constantly draining billions of dollars for all these urgent needs, and not solve the long-term problem?

If we don't solve the long-term problem, then we'll always be stuck with, "urgent" near-term shopping lists. This way of doing things is costing us both in direct terms and opportunity costs (e.g., that money could've gone back into the economy via in-house programs).

Just to make a point, I brought up the idea of the South African "New Attack Helicopter" program in 2008 (I was 17-18).

Basically, a kid could come up with these ideas, and they'd still make sense. It's now been 13 years since I made that comment -- we could've FOC-ed this by now if our decision-makers had the vision and sincerity.

View attachment 725217

This was when ATE (the private company in charge) said it'll set-up a new helicopter industry in the partner country.

Official Al Khalid 2 Discussion

just so you people know, pakistan transferred some armour technology from al-khalid to Turkey for their next-generation battle tank. al-khalid is anything but a failure. there haven't been any exports because we are not exporting it as a whole right now, only certain parts. Sorry, I disagree...

defence.pk

@JamD @Falcon26 @GriffinsRule

Yes all this talk of urgent need is mostly hogwash. War seems to be continuously imminent per some posters.
We also have no idea if the airframe life of the cobras we have or how much is left. PA Pumas have been active for a very long time too and I'd dare say flown more than the cobras. PA, like the PAF will be flying the aircraft until they know it's unsafe to do so.
As far as T129 goes, PA was initially going to get 15 by 2015 but the floods put a stop to that. I'm actually glad they are not rushing to buy something but instead are willing to wait for a solution and see how things pan out.
For the heavies, I have a feeling they will wait for the AH-1Zs, even if we don't like to hear that. There are no alternatives outside of US and Russia for that class of helicopters yet. If ATAK II is successful, and that's a big if, it's still at least a decade away from FOC, and user acceptance trials to eventual contract signing and delivery.
The TV3-117 engine is a natural alternative to US engines and it's variant already powers the heavy Mi-28 and Ka-50. So in essence there is little work to be done on the engine itself and mostly just the design and development of the ATAK II that needs to be finalized.

On a separate note, the original RR engines that equipped the A129 Mangusta were very underpowered and are not an option to replace the US engine

 

[Thorough Pro]

Buy the Russian attack helos

 

[araz]

Buy the Russian attack helos

Do you think you will get them? Who will finance them and how will the known Russian lazy sipply chain be dealt with? All valid questions that need answering.
A

 

[Thorough Pro]

Yes we will get them. We will finance them exactly the same way we financed the Turkish ones.

Do you think you will get them? Who will finance them and how will the known Russian lazy sipply chain be dealt with? All valid questions that need answering.
A

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

Do you think you will get them? Who will finance them and how will the known Russian lazy sipply chain be dealt with? All valid questions that need answering.
A

Mi-28 Havoc is pretty popular in Iraq. It was selected over Apache.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1372263199622496267

 

[ARMalik]

Some of the operational needs of the Helicopters have been taken over by UAVs. Although Hels are still important, but I have to say, Pakistan Army played its cards very poorly. Can't believe they (Pakistan, Turkey, etc) still have to beg every dic.k and harry for a suitable heli engine. Such a shame.