Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[SQ8]

Making an engine is easy. Making a good engine is hard. T129 powered by Turkish domestic engine is still decades away.


Z-19 is without a doubt far more advanced than T129.

The Z-19 is still limited by its Z-9 or rather Aerospatile Dauphin underpinnings - the T-129 has the advantage of being from the Mangusta which was purpose built as an attack helicopter.

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

You mean that

View attachment 724343

Helmet mounted display is nothing new. DJI sells it for like 500 bucks used on hobby drones.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Do we know what the overall Pakistan army attack helicopter requirements are (capabilities and numbers)? And if so, can any of those requirements be met with UCAVs or lighter helicopters or some other strategy?

considering Pakistan already operates the Z-9 for the navy, procuring a small number (perhaps 12) of Z-19 with the radar above the rotors could be a good stop-gap measure to fill a scouting role and not require a completely new logistical chain to maintain, while stealthy UCAVs fill the strike role.

if the MMW radar is an AESA radar, it can also be used to carry out electronic attack missions on enemy forces, frying their electronics, and quickly RTB. In this role it carry loitering munitions to carry out electronic attacks from multiple angles, degrading the enemies ability to fight.

If the price (an overall maintenance cost) is not that much different between the Z-19 and Z-10ME, then the Z-10ME should be acquired but with a MMW radar on top to give it that extra capability

Avertissement de redirection

IIRC we never heard a stated requirement. However, the PAA did officially plan on having 60 AH-1F/S in the 1990s (they ordered 40 AH-1F/S around the time the PAF ordered the 60 F-16s). However, not only did the Pressler Amendment scuttle that order, but we don't actually know if the PAA intended for more.

Then based on the AH-1Z and T129 orders, they were aiming for 45 new attack helicopters, but these were twin-engine types that were substantially more capable than the AH-1F/S. Even with a 1:1 swap-out, the PA was adding a lot of capability in terms of range, payload, and even tech (e.g., the T129s were coming with DRFM-based ECM!).

I think 45 attack helicopters -- i.e., 15 'heavies' (8-10-ton) and 30 'light' (5-6-tons) -- was likely the floor, and 90 (i.e., 30 heavies and 60 lights) the ceiling.

 

[FuturePAF]

IIRC the last stated requirement was 60 AH-1S/F in the late 1980s (i.e., 20 in the 1980s plus 40 more in the 1990s).

Based on the AH-1Z and T129 orders, they were aiming for 45 new attack helicopters, but these were twin-engine types that were substantially more capable than the AH-1F/S in terms of range, payload, endurance, etc.

So ... 45 to 60 is probably a good bet.

Considering the PA looks interested in sticking with the T-129, Do you think the PA would consider rebuilding/modernizing their current AH-1F/S fleet as a stop gap (and eventually transfer it to the FC) and/or some other stop-gap option? Is the role of these helicopters primarily anti-armor and if so, couldn’t some other system also fill the gap in the interim; some kind of stealthy UCAVs, for example?

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

I think 45 attack helicopters -- i.e., 15 'heavies' (8-10-ton) and 30 'light' (5-6-tons) -- was likely the floor, and 90 (i.e., 30 heavies and 60 lights) the ceiling.

The heavies can be fulfilled by attack version of Z-20.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Considering the PA looks interested in sticking with the T-129, Do you think the PA would consider rebuilding/modernizing their current AH-1F/S fleet as a stop gap (and eventually transfer it to the FC) and/or some other stop-gap option? Is the role of these helicopters primarily anti-armor and if so, couldn’t some other system also fill the gap in the interim; UCAVs for example?

I think the 'urgency' of a new attack helicopter might have slipped with the relative drawdown of COIN/CT ops. So, the PAA might not be in a rush, and is willing to wait for a fresh crop of aircraft to evaluate, e.g., a modified ATAK with TS1500, T629, or an even improved variant of the Z-10ME.

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

a modified ATAK with TS1500, T629, or an even improved variant of the Z-10ME.

I believe the Z-10ME is sufficiently "improved". What more do you want on it, space lasers?

 

[FuturePAF]

I think the 'urgency' of a new attack helicopter might have slipped with the relative drawdown of COIN/CT ops. So, the PAA might not be in a rush, and is willing to wait for a fresh crop of aircraft to evaluate, e.g., a modified ATAK with TS1500, T629, or an even improved variant of the Z-10ME.

It’s good to know the need isn’t there as much any more

 

[SQ8]

Helmet mounted display is nothing new. DJI sells it for like 500 bucks used on hobby drones.

I would guess you have no differentiation between FPV goggles and what goes into a military HMD - that’s like saying pot stickers are the same as dumplings.

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

I would guess you have no differentiation between FPV goggles and what goes into a military HMD - that’s like saying pot stickers are the same as dumplings.

Actually the DJI helmet mounted display is more advanced considering it uses Wi-Fi rather than cable.

compared to

 

[Ghessan]

There is no money. This is Turkish sovereign funds loaned to Pak for the project. PAA does not have 1.5 billion lying around. If the Chinese product is still not upto PAA requirements then PAA only has 2 choices. Either wait for the Chinese to come up with a better product at a manageable price or wait for the Turks.
A

what i want to say is, Pakistan is ready to take a loan with pay back at agreed terms, which means Pak Army is ready for it.
when we debate AH1Z were held to be released if we pay for them, then can we ask for the loan from the US likewise?

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

TEI boss Prof Dr Mahmut Aksit, a former VP of Turbo-engine R&D group in GE, is imaging TEI after GE that owns 46% of TEI to begin with. Basically, GE formed TEI in 1986 to assemble F-16 engines in Turkey. So, turbo-prop, turbo-shaft and turbo-fan engine projects are progressing in the best engineering principles, practices, reliability, quality and ethics possible....

If folks have trust in GE, Rolls-Royce etc. to produce aero engines they should have trust in TEI too.....

TEI is one of the largest critical rotational turbo-engine parts designers suppliers for GE, Pratt & Whitney, Rolls Royce, Saffron etc. in the both civil and military sectors....

*Prof Mahmut Aksit is the son of Prof Jevat Aksit, one of the top scholars of Islamic jurisprudence (Fikh) in Turkey

**He has survived several assassination attempts, including poisoning, on his life​

 

[SQ8]

Actually the DJI helmet mounted display is more advanced considering it uses Wi-Fi rather than cable.

compared to

No it isn’t - The cable is there for a purpose, unlike wireless signals which can suffer electronic interference that cause anything from failure to latency issues, cables are shielded and have redundancies built in.

That DJI FPv only requires me to send a wideband high power squelch and that customer is blind - meanwhile the purpose built HMD has shielded electronics and cables to even potentially survive a EMP from a nuclear explosion.



Same reason why military radios today still sound like someone is squeezing nuts versus normal cellular transmission - there are layers of robust compression and encryption designed to weather the most difficult of electronic environment

 

[wasileo80]

It's USA Turkey clash not Pakistan USA clash. F 16 is a different case.

Its purely US-Pakistan tussel. AH-1Z is a prime example. US knew that Pakistan will not pay from own pocket so they put this condition on the table to stop the delivery as they didnt have any other valid excuse at that time. Same happened with 8 F-16s Block 52. And both the deals affected by strong Indian lobby but they played very well that they successfuly showed that its matter of Payment terms but real reason was obvious.

 

[SD 10]

Its purely US-Pakistan tussel. AH-1Z is a prime example. US knew that Pakistan will not pay from own pocket so they put this condition on the table to stop the delivery as they didnt have any other valid excuse at that time. Same happened with 8 F-16s Block 52. And both the deals affected by strong Indian lobby but they played very well that they successfuly showed that its matter of Payment terms but real reason was obvious.

fan boys will disagree with you!