Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[maverick1977]

can engines be procured from a different OEM?

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

I think a domestic Turkish engine for T129 may be possible in the coming decades but it will be difficult. It took China decades to make WS-10 and that was after China made a number of domestic jet engines. Turkey has no experience making engine.

In the meantime it is prudent for Pakistan to buy WZ-10. WZ-10 has helmet display. T129 don't.

 

[eagleeye]

You mean that

 

[HAIDER]

Not the 17 bu the 19 I.e F6. Modifications included American Sidewinders.

May be i am mixing with 17 or 19 ...

 

[That Guy]

I think there is a situation which the US might play out. It might say that the S400 deal with Turkey was a problem because Turkey was a pargner in the F35 programme. In India's case they do/not have the same leverage as India is not buying the F35. It therefore will continue to sanction Turkey but might giv3 India some reprieve. In any case the US is likely to draw a blank if it tries sanctioning India as barring a few items India does not have any big ticket US items.
A

Just to clarify, buying any advanced Russian military system is against US arms sanctions, so they'd be breaking their own rules to sign a waiver for India, or ignore sanctioning India.

But yeah, you make a good point.

 

[Ali_Baba]

It is a shame about the engines for the T-129, i guess that will be lesson for Turkey to make sure all its programmes are ITAR free for the future.

Engines are the achilles heel of most military programmes and even China at times struggles with engines. It is a complicated issue, but one that Turkey can address.

I suspect, that PA will want to wait for the T-129s. Drones hae changed the equation and PA has bought quite a few of them recently, so i think they can afford to wait.

This is not about the Z-10 not being good enough, it is about military diversity and therefore capability. Standardisation and diversity have their own military benefits and issues. Pakistan "wants" to "develop" Turkey as a military weapons supplier by actively getting involved in procuring some of them.

Yes, China can provide everything, that is not the issue here.

 

[FuturePAF]

Do we know what the overall Pakistan army attack helicopter requirements are (capabilities and numbers)? And if so, can any of those requirements be met with UCAVs or lighter helicopters or some other strategy?

considering Pakistan already operates the Z-9 for the navy, procuring a small number (perhaps 12) of Z-19 with the radar above the rotors could be a good stop-gap measure to fill a scouting role and not require a completely new logistical chain to maintain, while stealthy UCAVs fill the strike role.

if the MMW radar is an AESA radar, it can also be used to carry out electronic attack missions on enemy forces, frying their electronics, and quickly RTB. In this role it carry loitering munitions to carry out electronic attacks from multiple angles, degrading the enemies ability to fight.

If the price (an overall maintenance cost) is not that much different between the Z-19 and Z-10ME, then the Z-10ME should be acquired but with a MMW radar on top to give it that extra capability

Avertissement de redirection

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

Making an engine is easy. Making a good engine is hard. T129 powered by Turkish domestic engine is still decades away.

Do we know what the overall Pakistan army attack helicopter requirements are (capabilities and numbers)? And if so, can any of those requirements be met with UCAVs or lighter helicopters or some other strategy?

considering Pakistan already operates the Z-9 for the navy, procuring a small number (perhaps 12) of Z-19 with the radar above the rotors could be a good stop-gap measure to fill a scouting role and not require a completely new logistical chain to maintain, while stealthy UCAVs fill the strike role.

if the MMW radar is an AESA radar, it can also be used to carry out electronic attack missions on enemy forces, frying their electronics, and quickly RTB. In this role it carry loitering munitions to carry out electronic attacks from multiple angles, degrading the enemies ability to fight.

If the price (an overall maintenance cost) is not that much different between the Z-19 and Z-10ME, then the Z-10ME should be acquired but with a MMW radar on top to give it that extra capability

Avertissement de redirection

Z-19 is without a doubt far more advanced than T129.

 

[MMM-E]

Making an engine is easy. Making a good engine is hard. T129 powered by Turkish domestic engine is still decades away.

Turkish TEI TS-1400 turboshaft Engine will be ready in 2024 for mass production, even its superior to American LHTEC CTS800


TEI TS-1400 Turboshaft Engine

TEI-TS1400 engine was designed for the T625 multirole Helicopter and T629 Attack Helicopter


T-129 Attack Helicopter used LHTEC CTS800 turboshaft engines that have 1,373 shaft horsepower each, created jointly by Rolls-Royce and Honeywell

İndigenous engine TEI TS-1400 which produces 1,660 horsepower

 

[Ali_Baba]

Has Turkey built all 30 Helicopters already? ie are they waiting for shipping subject to the last step of export approval ?

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

Has Turkey built all 30 Helicopters already? ie are they waiting for shipping subject to the last step of export approval ?

There is no export approval and won't be one. Turkey is at odds with the US about S-400 which triggered CAATSA.

 

[Ali_Baba]

There is no export approval and won't be one. Turkey is at odds with the US about S-400 which triggered CAATSA.

That does NOT my answer my question !!!!!!!!!! I am asking about the current state of the manufacturing process of the PA T-129s. That is all.

ie are they sitting in some field somewhere like the AH-1Zs ????

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

Turkish TEI TS-1400 turboshaft Engine will be ready in 2024 for mass production

What stage is this engine in? Has it been test flown?

 

[FuturePAF]

Making an engine is easy. Making a good engine is hard. T129 powered by Turkish domestic engine is still decades away.


Z-19 is without a doubt far more advanced than T129.

but can it perform as well as the T-129 in hot and high altitude conditions. Even the American Apache until its recent engine upgrades had limited capabilities in the high mountains of Afghanistan. They had to go through valleys in places and not just over mountains, adding crucial minutes to get to a battle, which could have been the difference between losing troops or arriving in time to protect them.

Btw, here is where the Apache’s development is going. Can the Z-19 or Z-10ME match it. The Turks want to offer the ATAK helicopter as a follow on after the 30 T-129. Is there a heavier Chinese attack helicopter under development after the Z-10ME, similar to the Apache?

Here's The Army's Plan For Making Its Apaches More Capable At Sea And Deadlier Overall

The Version 6 update package will also improve the gunship's ability to tag-team with drones and collect and share various sensor data.

www.thedrive.com

Besides firepower, survivability and mobility, we need to look at helicopters being hovering electronic warfare platforms that are a vital link to guide unmanned systems in the employment of EW and attacks on datalinks and electronic networks.

Here is a good video at the capabilities of the Apache, with the second half being very informative from the manufacturer. You see the early signs of the shift from COIN to EW operations. These are the capabilities, which in addition to the kinetic capabilities need to be part of the PA’s future helicopters.

And here is one of the contenders for the future US army attack helicopter requirement, where these capabilities are elaborated upon.

 

[mingle]

Making an engine is easy. Making a good engine is hard. T129 powered by Turkish domestic engine is still decades away.


Z-19 is without a doubt far more advanced than T129.

From front it's look like Tiger but amazing load it carries