Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The real benefit comes when you also start exporting and bringing in foreign exchange.

I didn't even include exports, but you're 100% correct.

The T625 is available for both military and civilian applications. So, when all Hueys start aging across Africa and Central Asia, we can definitely step in with a new alternative, but without US/EU strings. Since this is one of Turkey's main programs, they'll also market it aggressively.

In some cases, we can barter, e.g., we give Nigeria helicopters in-exchange for direct access to their oil (and we benefit by solving our energy import bill and save money elsewhere).

 

[CriticalThought]

I didn't even include exports, but you're 100% correct.

The T625 is available for both military and civilian applications. So, when all Hueys start aging across Africa and Central Asia, we can definitely step in with a new alternative, but without US/EU strings.

In some cases, we can barter, e.g., we give Nigeria helicopters in-exchange for direct access to their oil (and we benefit by solving our energy import bill and save money elsewhere).

Let's not forget, PAC started with the Mushak. The fighter jet JF-17 came many years later.

It would be awesome if we could replicate the success of Mushak/Super Mushak with an entry level helicopter.

 

[Trango Towers]

The only way it'd work is if we buy into their industry and commit to some kind of 'no re-export' clause for anything we make in Pakistan using their IP. I suspect a big reason why Ukraine was hesitant to transfer any key IP to Turkey was the risk of competition. For Pakistan, the issue has more to do with security and guaranteeing our supply line, not commercial gain; so, we may have a chance.

Overall, this is a huge reason why we need to invest in IP creation in Pakistan. We might do a few thing well enough where we can trade secrets with others -- talk as peers, not as punks.

Perhaps take an approach where we co-fund or entirely fund the design and development of an engine in Ukraine, and we then build it turn-key in Pakistan. However, we don't stop them from re-exporting that engine and, likewise, whenever we make sales for say a fighter, helicopter or drone on our end, we source the engine from Ukraine. We emphasize to them that we don't want to be arms dealers, we're just trying to fight for our survival.

Bilal bhai everything you say is correct. However, you have overlooked the Pakistani or let's says Asian psyche .... we are a reactive people. We do not think proactively. This failure is what has handicapped our nation.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Let's not forget, PAC started with the Mushak. The fighter jet JF-17 came many years later.

To illustrate our lack of business sense, no one noticed that we're a recognized leader in training.

So, it's not just the Mushshak, but we can help build the entire training ecosystem from the beginning all the way to basic and intermediate jet training (K-8), LIFT (JF-17B), and advanced training and doctrine (BVR, PGBs, etc). Countries like Azerbaijan, Nigeria, etc aren't going to get real help from the West or Russia in all of these critical areas (because those suppliers don't care).

We can step in with the aircraft, the subsystems (ACMI NG), the training facilities (ACE and CCS), and heck -- if they pay for it -- direct support with matching hardware and capabilities (since the PAF uses the same things).

So, with this knowledge, why aren't we trying to develop a new generation basic trainer to fill in between the Super Mushshak and the JF-17? We have K-8, so why not work on a K-8 NG? Let's say we've walked away from the K-8 (which is OK), then why not develop a turboprop trainer like the Hurkus or Super Tucano? Why not set-up a specialist DACT unit (using Mirage III/5s, F-7PGs or even used MiG-29s from various places) that other countries that contract out?

We could be the country for air warfare training, and that alone would add gravitas to the quality and capability of our air men and air force. This is how you show your superiority in the area, not tell it via news interviews or speeches.

 

[Reichmarshal]

In all these equipment, Pakistan still need frontline attack helicopter. Majority of above mention are transport or scouts. Plus, majority Cobras grounded due to parts shortage.

no cobras are grounded, the whole fleet is operational

 

[CriticalThought]

To illustrate our lack of business sense, no one noticed that we're a recognized leader in training.

So, it's not just the Mushshak, but we can help build the entire training ecosystem from the beginning all the way to basic and intermediate jet training (K-8), LIFT (JF-17B), and advanced training and doctrine (BVR, PGBs, etc). Countries like Azerbaijan, Nigeria, etc aren't going to get real help from the West or Russia in all of these critical areas (because those suppliers don't care).

We can step in with the aircraft, the subsystems (ACMI NG), the training facilities (ACE and CCS), and heck -- if they pay for it -- direct support with matching hardware and capabilities (since the PAF uses the same things).

So, with this knowledge, why aren't we trying to develop a new generation basic trainer to fill in between the Super Mushshak and the JF-17? We have K-8, so why not work on a K-8 NG? Let's say we've walked away from the K-8 (which is OK), then why not develop a turboprop trainer like the Hurkus or Super Tucano? Why not set-up a specialist DACT unit (using Mirage III/5s, F-7PGs or even used MiG-29s from various places) that other countries that contract out?

We could be the country for air warfare training, and that alone would add gravitas to the quality and capability of our air men and air force. This is how you show your superiority in the area, not tell it via news interviews or speeches.

To give credit where credit is due, ACM Sohail Aman did start the Centre for Air Power (if I remember the name correctly). They did hold a few events, but it didn't last long.

Reputations are built in war, and both the Syrian and Azerbaijan wars were our opportunity to build that reputation. It is unfortunate that we are currently limited to Myanmar and Nigeria, and we are limited by the quality of their pilots.

Let us see how things develop with Qatar. But all of this is related to fixed wing. We need to start from scratch in helis, and these concepts can and should be applied in that domain.

The helicopter lesson I took some time ago was in a French heli named Cabri. The owner told me it cost $500000/- and weights only 450 kg! It flies two people, the trainer and the pilot. It is cut throat business involving the use of composites, precision engineering, and obviously a good engine. All of this aligns with our overall goals of becoming an aviation hub.

Unfortunately, PAC's vision is set in the direction of business jets. There seems to be nothing on the horizon for helis.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

To give credit where credit is due, ACM Sohail Aman did start the Centre for Air Power (if I remember the name correctly). They did hold a few events, but it didn't last long.

Reputations are built in war, and both the Syrian and Azerbaijan wars were our opportunity to build that reputation. It is unfortunate that we are currently limited to Myanmar and Nigeria, and we are limited by the quality of their pilots.

Let us see how things develop with Qatar. But all of this is related to fixed wing. We need to start from scratch in helis, and these concepts can and should be applied in that domain.

The helicopter lesson I took some time ago was in a French heli named Cabri. The owner told me it cost $500000/- and weights only 450 kg! It flies two people, the trainer and the pilot. It is cut throat business involving the use of composites, precision engineering, and obviously a good engine. All of this aligns with our overall goals of becoming an aviation hub.

Unfortunately, PAC's vision is set in the direction of business jets. There seems to be nothing on the horizon for helis.

I'd rather we scrap the business jets and focus on a regional jet airliner.

Why?

1. Well, we can set-up a state financing scheme to help local airlines buy a domestic aircraft (and thereby serve the Pakistani travel market instead of letting Pakistanis fly foreign airlines).

2. Own a platform that we can modify and configure as a LRMPA, AEW&C, ISTAR, and ELINT aircraft at will.

 

[CriticalThought]

I'd rather we scrap the business jets and focus on a regional jet airliner.

Why?

1. Well, we can set-up a state financing scheme to help local airlines buy a domestic aircraft (and thereby serve the Pakistani travel market instead of letting Pakistanis fly foreign airlines).

2. Own a platform that we can modify and configure as a LRMPA, AEW&C, ISTAR, and ELINT aircraft at will.

Sorry, I think I used the wrong word 'business jet'. Maybe commercial jets would have been a better word.

Definitely, we have a huge need for such jets in the local market, and I don't oppose this. But we also have a huge need for helis in various roles and the blindness of top planners is shameful. Equally shameful is the lack of vision that has been shown in this area for decades.

 

[khanasifm]

just the mi 17 component of the PAA is around 80.
40 bell 412 were delivered.
pumas are around 45
cobras make around 40+
fennec/ecureuil around 25
a sqd of lamas
around 5 aw139 and 4 mi35
then theirs the jet ranger and Alouette around 30

not to forget the fixed-wing component of mushshak, Beechcraft, caravans,y12, citation, gulf stream etc etc..
and now the new addition of ucav.
All in all a big force.

Beg to differ based on count number of sqn and each sqn in paa usually has 5-10 heli anyway , if your number are good then Gr8 but each airframe has Service life after Which its grounded
Also 28 bell 412 plus 2 were total delivers add crashes what’s left ??

same mistakepaf has 200 plus mirages well total count acquired since 1968 but operation how many ?
Anyway let move on

Pakistan Army Aviation

Helicopters in PAKISTAN Pakistan Army Aviation fleet and news

www.helis.com

 

[Ghessan]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1370361734335229955

Because of the US embargo engine deeds yet to exceed US $ 1.5 billion worth of non-ATAK Program in Pakistan, Pakistan were granted additional time to Turkey by more than 6 months.

Defense Industry President Prof. Dr. Ismail Demir

 

[mingle]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1370361734335229955

Because of the US embargo engine deeds yet to exceed US $ 1.5 billion worth of non-ATAK Program in Pakistan, Pakistan were granted additional time to Turkey by more than 6 months.

Defense Industry President Prof. Dr. Ismail Demir

Another six months means both Pakistan and Turkey will try again for US engines maybe they have a hope this time.

 

[Ghessan]

Another six months means both Pakistan and Turkey will try again for US engines maybe they have a hope this time.

don't know the outcome but apparently no possibility in near future. question is otherwise where Pakistan is going to take this bag full of USD1.5b?

 

[Trango Towers]

don't know the outcome but apparently no possibility in near future. question is otherwise where Pakistan is going to take this bag full of USD1.5b?

Apply it under project azm. Home made gunship

 

[Khanate]

Another six months means both Pakistan and Turkey will try again for US engines maybe they have a hope this time.

PA could be hoping for some dividends from the Afghan peace process and a possible thaw in US-Turkey relations but let's see how it plays out.

 

[Ghessan]

Apply it under project azm. Home made gunship

there should be one under said project but that is still far off a possibility.

we still have a need for present time.