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Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

LOCAL ENGINE COMING TO ATTACKS! TURKEY GIANTS LEAGUE COMES to! CLEAR ANSWER TO PAKISTAN EMBARGO



Oh come on ... since years we hear from them they will ... and nothing happens. They have just a prototype of their first own helicopter engine running and you want to make us believe they could deliver soon! :hitwall: :crazy:

This will take years of testing, certificating and production for their own fleet and only then - mated with IF nothing worse happens - it could be delivered to Pakistan. So do us a favour and stop posting BS claims from Turkish fan-boys.
 
Oh come on ... since years we hear from them they will ... and nothing happens. They have just a prototype of their first own helicopter engine running and you want to make us believe they could deliver soon! :hitwall: :crazy:

This will take years of testing, certificating and production for their own fleet and only then - mated with IF nothing worse happens - it could be delivered to Pakistan. So do us a favour and stop posting BS claims from Turkish fan-boys.
Just keeping things....moist!
 

Believe me, she is just another youtuber .... an intentionally (unnecessarily) keench rahe hey explanation just for the sake of earning from youtube. She doesn't know anything regarding this... military terms ye hoti hey flana hoti hey and so on....

In short... Pakistan was a bit furious with turkish because they misguided Pakistani decision-makers on this helicopter let's be fair. Initially, the impression was, there wouldn't be any issue btw US/TUR and their deal of third-party components but with the passage of time, the Turkish side failed to convince us. Once the reality of US/Turkish revealed and the deal took a longer than expected period, there is a hell of ambiguity and vagueness at this moment. Realistically, Pakistan lost all the interest and trust regarding this ATAK. I can't see any practicality in this for the next 1.5 years... Since Biden came into power, Pakistan probably initiates the talks on the existing 2015 deal of vipers.... wait and watch...
 
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Believe me, she is just another youtuber .... an intentionally (unnecessarily) keench rahe hey explanation just for the sake of earning from youtube. She doesn't know anything regarding this... military terms ye hoti hey flana hoti hey and so on....

In short... Pakistan was a bit furious with turkish because they misguided Pakistani decision-makers on this helicopter let's be fair. Initially, Pakistan was convinced (and by whom? of course by Turkis side) that there was no issue btw US/TUR and their deal of third party components but with the passage of time, the decision-makers surprised and disappointed the way the Turkish side failed to convince us once the reality of US/Turkish revealed. There is now a lot of ambiguity and vagueness. Realistically, Pakistan lost all interest and trust regarding this ATAK. I can't see any practicality in the ATAK deal btw Turkey and Pakistan for the next 1.5 years at least. Let see...

Pakistan is now back to square one. Since Biden came into power, Pakistan probably initiates the talk on our existing deal of vipers..... silently.... wait and watch...
How many youtubers you have seen who have access to all kinds of military bases. She is going to SSG cant and Air Bases. Also PAF won't invite just a youtuber for launching of its last batch of dual seater jets. I initially thought she was some youtuber. But after carefully going through her videos she has way more access then any normal youtuber has.
 
How many youtubers you have seen who have access to all kinds of military bases. She is going to SSG cant and Air Bases. Also PAF won't invite just a youtuber for launching of its last batch of dual seater jets. I initially thought she was some youtuber. But after carefully going through her videos she has way more access then any normal youtuber has.

Lol my friends often visit PAF bases and even my non-mil friends twice visited SSG HQ in Cherat in the past couple pf months. One of my friends visited Bholari Air Base and his pictures (which he has taken of F16 BLK52) gone viral few days ago...

On a lighter note, thori boti salaam duwa ho and if youre in the media or have some links with any private channel aap ki jugaar lag jati hey so the ceremony of dual seater pe jana koi kamaal nahe hey lol
 
How many youtubers you have seen who have access to all kinds of military bases. She is going to SSG cant and Air Bases. Also PAF won't invite just a youtuber for launching of its last batch of dual seater jets. I initially thought she was some youtuber. But after carefully going through her videos she has way more access then any normal youtuber has.

She started her career with some news channel (maybe ARY) and recently started her YouTube channel. Even though she has access to military bases or events, She is not an expert in military hardware and made some simple mistakes in her videos. I have encouraged her to keep making videos and not worry about negative comments. Indian haramkhors were putting negative comments on her videos.
 
Believe me, she is just another youtuber .... an intentionally (unnecessarily) keench rahe hey explanation just for the sake of earning from youtube. She doesn't know anything regarding this... military terms ye hoti hey flana hoti hey and so on....

In short... Pakistan was a bit furious with turkish because they misguided Pakistani decision-makers on this helicopter let's be fair. Initially, the impression was, there could be no issue btw US/TUR and their deal of third-party components but with the passage of time, the Turkish side failed to convince us. Once the reality of US/Turkish revealed and the deal took a longer than expected period, there is a hell of ambiguity and vagueness at this moment. Realistically, Pakistan lost all the interest and trust regarding this ATAK. I can't see any practicality in this for the next 1.5 years... Since Biden came into power, Pakistan probably initiates the talks on the existing 2015 deal of vipers.... wait and watch...
I don't think this is the case.

The Turks offered the T129s with a Turkish Gov't credit facility. The way it worked was that the Turkish gov't paid for the production, and we'd pay for the helicopters when we take delivery.

Obviously, delivery didn't happen, so we didn't pay. Basically, it was a no-risk deal for the PA, which is a huge reason why we signed the deal. The PA has no reason to be angry, and it isn't.

Credit for a borderline pariah on FATF isn't easy to come by, so the PA will keep the Turks as an option. But if we're a borderline pariah, then we're approaching this all wrong @denel

It's starting to dawn on the PA (and PN) that buying attack and special mission helicopters off-the-shelf isn't an option. Be it a gunship or an anti-sub/ship chopper, we're talking about valuable offensive systems, and only two countries are willing to talk to us about them: China and Turkey.

If we want a 'perfect match,' we'll need to develop our own. There's no excuse why we didn't work on a Dhruv/LCH-type of project. With our own asset (which we can run through multiple variants for 30-40 years), we can build a large close air support (CAS) and air mobility force.

To be honest, I'd start with the optimal design approach (like the PAF is doing with AZM). Basically, skip the lightweight stuff, and go for a 'heavyweight' -- i.e., 9-10-ton-class -- design from the start for both the attack helicopter and transport helicopter.

Buy the engines and dynamic components from a single source (e.g., Ukraine). Design the attack and transport helicopter with a common engine, rotor, and transmission system. You can contract design help from abroad if need be, e.g., Denel (which had worked on the Rooivalk and Oryx).

Basically, let's revive this bird with Mi-17 DNA (engine, transmissions, etc via Ukraine).

1613489319489.png
 
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I don't think this is the case.

The Turks offered the T129s with a Turkish Gov't credit facility. The way it worked was that the Turkish gov't paid for the production, and we'd pay for the helicopters when we take delivery.

Obviously, delivery didn't happen, so we didn't pay. Basically, it was a no-risk deal for the PA, which is a huge reason why we signed the deal. The PA has no reason to be angry, and it isn't.

Credit for a borderline pariah on FATF isn't easy to come by, so the PA will keep the Turks as an option. But if we're a borderline pariah, then we're approaching this all wrong @denel

It's starting to dawn on the PA (and PN) that buying attack and special mission helicopters off-the-shelf isn't an option. Be it a gunship or an anti-sub/ship chopper, we're talking about valuable offensive systems, and only two countries are willing to talk to us about them: China and Turkey.

If we want a 'perfect match,' we'll need to develop our own. There's no excuse why we didn't work on a Dhruv/LCH-type of project. With our own asset (which we can run through multiple variants for 30-40 years), we can build a large close air support (CAS) and air mobility force.

To be honest, I'd start with the optimal design approach (like the PAF is doing with AZM). Basically, skip the lightweight stuff, and go for a 'heavyweight' -- i.e., 9-10-ton-class -- design from the start for both the attack helicopter and transport helicopter.

Buy the engines and dynamic components from a single source (e.g., Ukraine). Design the attack and transport helicopter with a common engine, rotor, and transmission system. You can contract design help from abroad if need be, e.g., Denel (which had worked on the Rooivalk and Oryx).

Basically, let's revive this bird with Mi-17 DNA (engine, transmissions, etc via Ukraine).

View attachment 716827

Maybe you're right but I have a very different perspective based on my own info.

PS: Please ping me (check your email I have sent you through your site) need to talk about something.
 
To be honest, I'd start with the optimal design approach (like the PAF is doing with AZM). Basically, skip the lightweight stuff, and go for a 'heavyweight' -- i.e., 9-10-ton-class -- design from the start for both the attack helicopter and transport helicopter.

Buy the engines and dynamic components from a single source (e.g., Ukraine). Design the attack and transport helicopter with a common engine, rotor, and transmission system. You can contract design help from abroad if need be, e.g., Denel (which had worked on the Rooivalk and Oryx).

Basically, let's revive this bird with Mi-17 DNA (engine, transmissions, etc via Ukraine).
That's easier said than done. There are many complication with this approach aswell.

But I agree with the rest. Pakistan has shown near criminal negligence regarding helicopter development in the past for which we are paying now. We should have started at least 30-35 years ago. Even now we should consider building a local industry but we have to do JV's and start with something light/medium, not heavy. Way to do it would be to comission a requirement for a new utility helicopter and invite bids leading to a JV. Should cover civilian requirement also to increase numbers.
 
I don't think this is the case.

The Turks offered the T129s with a Turkish Gov't credit facility. The way it worked was that the Turkish gov't paid for the production, and we'd pay for the helicopters when we take delivery.

Obviously, delivery didn't happen, so we didn't pay. Basically, it was a no-risk deal for the PA, which is a huge reason why we signed the deal. The PA has no reason to be angry, and it isn't.

Credit for a borderline pariah on FATF isn't easy to come by, so the PA will keep the Turks as an option. But if we're a borderline pariah, then we're approaching this all wrong @denel

It's starting to dawn on the PA (and PN) that buying attack and special mission helicopters off-the-shelf isn't an option. Be it a gunship or an anti-sub/ship chopper, we're talking about valuable offensive systems, and only two countries are willing to talk to us about them: China and Turkey.

If we want a 'perfect match,' we'll need to develop our own. There's no excuse why we didn't work on a Dhruv/LCH-type of project. With our own asset (which we can run through multiple variants for 30-40 years), we can build a large close air support (CAS) and air mobility force.

To be honest, I'd start with the optimal design approach (like the PAF is doing with AZM). Basically, skip the lightweight stuff, and go for a 'heavyweight' -- i.e., 9-10-ton-class -- design from the start for both the attack helicopter and transport helicopter.

Buy the engines and dynamic components from a single source (e.g., Ukraine). Design the attack and transport helicopter with a common engine, rotor, and transmission system. You can contract design help from abroad if need be, e.g., Denel (which had worked on the Rooivalk and Oryx).

Basically, let's revive this bird with Mi-17 DNA (engine, transmissions, etc via Ukraine).

View attachment 716827
As much I am a fan of your articles and posts, but I'd like to differ here. No doubt, you have given the optimum solution to the requirement, but it is a far cry from where we are standing. PAC had a wherewithal to undertake an aircraft manufacturing project but for a helo it may not be that simple. Besides, as you already mentioned and highlighted the issue of visionary leadership, I doubt anybody will be worried on this account let alone envision such a project. To sum up, its always going to be off the shelf procurement and I have no doubt for anything to change at least for the next 4 to 5 years.
 
As much I am a fan of your articles and posts, but I'd like to differ here. No doubt, you have given the optimum solution to the requirement, but it is a far cry from where we are standing. PAC had a wherewithal to undertake an aircraft manufacturing project but for a helo it may not be that simple. Besides, as you already mentioned and highlighted the issue of visionary leadership, I doubt anybody will be worried on this account let alone envision such a project. To sum up, its always going to be off the shelf procurement and I have no doubt for anything to change at least for the next 4 to 5 years.
I agree, but I'd still wager a locally produced solution. It might not be a factor today, but if 'circumstances' (like what we went through with the US, or not finding the right fit in China) keep up, they may pivot.

It may not be as thorough as a locally designed solution, but agreeing to something like the T625 and T629 with a relatively deep industrial footprint (e.g., depot-level MRO, parts manufacturing, some sub-assemblies work and final assembly) is a possibility.

In fact, the PAA had explored this very possibility back in the mid-to-late 1980s with the AH-1 and UH-1. Talks had gotten serious, but political issues with the US (pre-Pressler) scuttled the program.
 
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