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Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

Pakistan already have lots of Wing Loong 2 attack drones which are less costly, easier to train pilots, safer for pilots. Helicopters are mostly outdated. A better option for Pakistan is to get more Wing Loong 2 attack drones.
 
Yes it has. I still shake my head, Pak is crying for ToT on mine proof vehicles. Man, we can easily ToT this. We do it across so many countries and yet no takers in Pak who will take American useless garbage over real stuff.
When you (rsa) cooperate with the Emirates do you give them local production in some way or just let them assemble the Umbani bomb in kd kits? Not sure if you give ToT for just anything in rsa.
 
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I highly doubt Turkey would have a F-110 class engine out by the end of the decade ... maybe in 20 years. People always underestimate aeroengine development. Building an engine demonstrator/verification machine is relatively easy but converting that to a mass production version is by far the hardest part.


Feasibility studies of Turkish institutes indicate 12-14 years time scale to develop domestic turbofan engines (F110 class) from scratch. With know-how help to be received from RR (most likely), It was planned to reduce this time ~ 8-10 years.
 
When you (rsa) cooperate with the Emirates do you give them local production in some way or just let them assemble the Umbani bomb in kd kits? Not sure if you give ToT for just anything in rsa.
They do not have most of the know how etc. Mostly it is KDs. Same goes for vehicles as well.
 
They do not have most of the know how etc. Mostly it is KDs. Same goes for vehicles as well.
I suspect ToT would depend on the end-user and the commercial terms.

So, for example, assume the Pakistan Army said it wants 1,000 MRAPs built in Pakistan with local content making up 75%+ of the value, and an ironclad commitment to buy them over 10 years.

In this case, Denel Land Systems or Paramount Group can talk to Pakistani investors to set-up a jointly-owned firm in Pakistan to take lead on the MRAP.

The two sides can survey Pakistan to see how much localization can happen right away. The companies supplying inputs to Toyota, Honda, etc, may make up 25% of the value right away. So, the issue would be the remaining 50% of the value. In some cases, it's out of the OEM's control so to speak because the engine comes from a third-party, like Germany or the UK.

But a 1,000 MRAP requirement may trigger enough interest to invest in manufacturing the engine in Pakistan, and who knows, the 3rd party engine OEM may invest to set it up in Pakistan itself. If not, someone will invest money in setting up capacity -- one way or another, we would manufacture engines and transmissions.

Basically, the key here is to (1) set-up a massive requirement over many years and (2) to invite the private sector to take lead and benefit from the economic benefits. In addition to the work (from Army orders), the private sector will want to own the IP and have the freedom to use it for other purposes (e.g., trucks, exports, etc).

Unfortunately, Pakistan's procurement processes are too rigid and half-hearted. There is no commitment to offsets nor an interest -- much less facility -- to tie-in the private sector. Instead, we're only fattening up HIT, POF, etc.

The issue with fattening up HIT, POF, et. al is that (1) it costs money that comes from the acquisition budget, (2) it costs money to maintain/support, and (3) it's usually not used to capacity. So, we end up spending money on jobs and capacity that we're not using, and this money comes from the defence budget (stated or hidden).

However, what we should be doing is offloading the defence industry capacity (or at least non-critical parts) to the private sector. HIT can focus on MBTs, but all wheeled LAVs, AFVs, MRAPs, etc, can go to the private sector.

These entities will spend on maintaining the capacity, and being profit-driven, they will use that capacity. So, if the domestic orders don't fill that capacity, they'll export (this is, of course, contingent on a proper export policy on the MoD's part). In effect, the private sector is (1) saving GHQ fiscal resources by up-keeping the production capacity and (2) earning Pakistan ForEx via exports.

Ideally, you'd pair the private sector production base with R&D. So, in its tenders the Pak Army can say, "10% of the contract value must go into Pakistani R&D." Going back to the engine example above, the investors could look to developing an engine in Pakistan by investing in R&D. In this case, not only are you on track to an engine, but massive IP generation (there are many parts to an engine), which you can license out for ForEx.

This is all from 1 hypothetical MRAP requirement. It's doable. Unfortunately, the decision makers in the MoD, MoDP, GHQ, etc, all lack the foresight and interest in nation-building to pull this off. As a result, we Pakistanis are routinely taken for a ride by big powers.
 
I suspect ToT would depend on the end-user and the commercial terms.

So, for example, assume the Pakistan Army said it wants 1,000 MRAPs built in Pakistan with local content making up 75%+ of the value, and an ironclad commitment to buy them over 10 years.

In this case, Denel Land Systems or Paramount Group can talk to Pakistani investors to set-up a jointly-owned firm in Pakistan to take lead on the MRAP.

The two sides can survey Pakistan to see how much localization can happen right away. The companies supplying inputs to Toyota, Honda, etc, may make up 25% of the value right away. So, the issue would be the remaining 50% of the value. In some cases, it's out of the OEM's control so to speak because the engine comes from a third-party, like Germany or the UK.

But a 1,000 MRAP requirement may trigger enough interest to invest in manufacturing the engine in Pakistan, and who knows, the 3rd party engine OEM may invest to set it up in Pakistan itself. If not, someone will invest money in setting up capacity -- one way or another, we would manufacture engines and transmissions.

Basically, the key here is to (1) set-up a massive requirement over many years and (2) to invite the private sector to take lead and benefit from the economic benefits. In addition to the work (from Army orders), the private sector will want to own the IP and have the freedom to use it for other purposes (e.g., trucks, exports, etc).

Unfortunately, Pakistan's procurement processes are too rigid and half-hearted. There is no commitment to offsets nor an interest -- much less facility -- to tie-in the private sector. Instead, we're only fattening up HIT, POF, etc.

The issue with fattening up HIT, POF, et. al is that (1) it costs money that comes from the acquisition budget, (2) it costs money to maintain/support, and (3) it's usually not used to capacity. So, we end up spending money on jobs and capacity that we're not using, and this money comes from the defence budget (stated or hidden).

However, what we should be doing is offloading the defence industry capacity (or at least non-critical parts) to the private sector. HIT can focus on MBTs, but all wheeled LAVs, AFVs, MRAPs, etc, can go to the private sector.

These entities will spend on maintaining the capacity, and being profit-driven, they will use that capacity. So, if the domestic orders don't fill that capacity, they'll export (this is, of course, contingent on a proper export policy on the MoD's part). In effect, the private sector is (1) saving GHQ fiscal resources by up-keeping the production capacity and (2) earning Pakistan ForEx via exports.

Ideally, you'd pair the private sector production base with R&D. So, in its tenders the Pak Army can say, "10% of the contract value must go into Pakistani R&D." Going back to the engine example above, the investors could look to developing an engine in Pakistan by investing in R&D. In this case, not only are you on track to an engine, but massive IP generation (there are many parts to an engine), which you can license out for ForEx.

This is all from 1 hypothetical MRAP requirement. It's doable. Unfortunately, the decision makers in the MoD, MoDP, GHQ, etc, all lack the foresight and interest in nation-building to pull this off. As a result, we Pakistanis are routinely taken for a ride by big powers.
You hit the nail on the head. It is beyond moronic to see the begging bowl mentality to get equipment. mine proof vehicles - man, just look at 1st gen - Buffels - Those are so simple in design, even Sri Lanka with no manufacturing forte can clone a copy. Instead, it pains me to see the garbage vehicles gotten from all various hand me downs.
 
Yes it has. I still shake my head, Pak is crying for ToT on mine proof vehicles. Man, we can easily ToT this. We do it across so many countries and yet no takers in Pak who will take American useless garbage over real stuff.


Could you up your "corrupt pay off" budget

South Africans obviously don't know how it works


If you up your pay off budget we would buy a trash can on wheels with a sling shot bolted on top

Of course only if tot is involved
 
I suspect ToT would depend on the end-user and the commercial terms.

So, for example, assume the Pakistan Army said it wants 1,000 MRAPs built in Pakistan with local content making up 75%+ of the value, and an ironclad commitment to buy them over 10 years.

In this case, Denel Land Systems or Paramount Group can talk to Pakistani investors to set-up a jointly-owned firm in Pakistan to take lead on the MRAP.

The two sides can survey Pakistan to see how much localization can happen right away. The companies supplying inputs to Toyota, Honda, etc, may make up 25% of the value right away. So, the issue would be the remaining 50% of the value. In some cases, it's out of the OEM's control so to speak because the engine comes from a third-party, like Germany or the UK.

But a 1,000 MRAP requirement may trigger enough interest to invest in manufacturing the engine in Pakistan, and who knows, the 3rd party engine OEM may invest to set it up in Pakistan itself. If not, someone will invest money in setting up capacity -- one way or another, we would manufacture engines and transmissions.

Basically, the key here is to (1) set-up a massive requirement over many years and (2) to invite the private sector to take lead and benefit from the economic benefits. In addition to the work (from Army orders), the private sector will want to own the IP and have the freedom to use it for other purposes (e.g., trucks, exports, etc).

Unfortunately, Pakistan's procurement processes are too rigid and half-hearted. There is no commitment to offsets nor an interest -- much less facility -- to tie-in the private sector. Instead, we're only fattening up HIT, POF, etc.

The issue with fattening up HIT, POF, et. al is that (1) it costs money that comes from the acquisition budget, (2) it costs money to maintain/support, and (3) it's usually not used to capacity. So, we end up spending money on jobs and capacity that we're not using, and this money comes from the defence budget (stated or hidden).

However, what we should be doing is offloading the defence industry capacity (or at least non-critical parts) to the private sector. HIT can focus on MBTs, but all wheeled LAVs, AFVs, MRAPs, etc, can go to the private sector.

These entities will spend on maintaining the capacity, and being profit-driven, they will use that capacity. So, if the domestic orders don't fill that capacity, they'll export (this is, of course, contingent on a proper export policy on the MoD's part). In effect, the private sector is (1) saving GHQ fiscal resources by up-keeping the production capacity and (2) earning Pakistan ForEx via exports.

Ideally, you'd pair the private sector production base with R&D. So, in its tenders the Pak Army can say, "10% of the contract value must go into Pakistani R&D." Going back to the engine example above, the investors could look to developing an engine in Pakistan by investing in R&D. In this case, not only are you on track to an engine, but massive IP generation (there are many parts to an engine), which you can license out for ForEx.

This is all from 1 hypothetical MRAP requirement. It's doable. Unfortunately, the decision makers in the MoD, MoDP, GHQ, etc, all lack the foresight and interest in nation-building to pull this off. As a result, we Pakistanis are routinely taken for a ride by big powers.
Bilal, you need to check OTT as well. These people are doing the lower tier vehicles - even these will work. If ex-denel employees can colaborate and get a 3rd company going from scratch why cant anyone in Pak?

https://ott.co.za/?gclid=CjwKCAjwjq...2aZJp8h9wrklTjB0swoGgTzLuCtoVKRoC6PEQAvD_BwE#
 
Could you up your "corrupt pay off" budget

South Africans obviously don't know how it works


If you up your pay off budget we would buy a trash can on wheels with a sling shot bolted on top

Of course only if tot is involved
Trust me, we know - this is part of any arms deals; the issue is many europeans/US consortiums pay more to sell garbage.

Just look at OTT products - some of the vehicles are needed right now; instead you get useless US clones. Even OTT refurbished are pretty cheap to buy.
 
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Feasibility studies of Turkish institutes indicate 12-14 years time scale to develop domestic turbofan engines (F110 class) from scratch. With know-how help to be received from RR (most likely), It was planned to reduce this time ~ 8-10 years.
We shall see ... but the leap from an engine demonstrator to one that is fit for mass production is a very large one. Of course best of luck to Turkey. But I still think the best solution is just to purchase aereongines off the shelf rather than spending decades on creating an indigenous gas turbine industry. Even the Japanese XF-9, a more advanced engine than the F110 GE-132, has been stuck at the demonstrator stage for a while now, with no solid plans to move forward. Indeed, it is doubtful it will ever move into mass production.
 
We shall see ... but the leap from an engine demonstrator to one that is fit for mass production is a very large one. Of course best of luck to Turkey. But I still think the best solution is just to purchase aereongines off the shelf rather than spending decades on creating an indigenous gas turbine industry. Even the Japanese XF-9, a more advanced engine than the F110 GE-132, has been stuck at the demonstrator stage for a while now, with no solid plans to move forward. Indeed, it is doubtful it will ever move into mass production.
China used hundreds of J-11B and J-11BS figther jets to make WS-10 engine mature eventually.
Do you think Japan has a such opportunity?:-)
 
Temel Kotil;

  • We will solve engine problem and deliver T-129 Atak to Pakistan.
  • In addition to T-129 Atak, We are working to carry out different studies with Pakistan. Not only T-129 Atak but also T-625 utility, T-629 and Atak-2 platforms.
  • We (TAI) are establishing a tech center inside PAC KAMRA.
  • He added We should form more cooperation with Pakistan... Helicopter programs, Tf-X MMU, Hürjet...etc
https://www.savunmasanayist.com/tus...ik-aciklamalar/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
 
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