Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[-------]

This is the configuration Pakistan would have received its T-129 PII if problems with the engine export would not have existed.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

This is the configuration Pakistan would have received its T-129 PII if problems with the engine export would not have existed.
View attachment 627396

Where are the weapons?

 

[vi-va]

This is the configuration Pakistan would have received its T-129 PII if problems with the engine export would not have existed.
View attachment 627396

Don't you think view field blocked by reconnaissance pod?

 

[PanzerKiel]

@PanzerKiel

I must say, in some actions where these four participated together, they achieved quite a fame while using their guns and ATGMs.

 

[cabatli_53]

Similar to CTS-800, Turkey has developed TEI-TS-1500 turboshaft engine to integrate both civilian and military helicopters so Domestic engine will receive EASA certification after Engine will be tested on most difficult conditions and emergency situations to prove its maturity. Later, This engine will be allowed to be integrated on civilian helicopters (T-625 civilian variant). It will take 2 years.

TEI-TS-1500 (1600shp class) will be delivered to TAI in Q3/4 of this year and first flight of this engine with T-625 will be done in this year. From 2020 Q3/4 to 2021 Q3/4, this engine will be under the engineering test phase. Performance of this engine at high/hot conditions will be noted, thrust ratio in different altitudes will be checked, FADEC will be updated If It is needed... later, Engine will be ready for operations (2021) in military helicopters T-629. After EASA were taken by 2023, Civilian T-625 variants will be promoted.

T-625 Civilian variant interior

 

[-------]

Don't you think view field blocked by reconnaissance pod?

If it were an issue they would have ironed it out during the prototype phase.

 

[vi-va]

If it were an issue they would have ironed it out during the prototype phase.

Maneuverability is essential for attack helicopter, I do see some problem when angle changed.

This is Z-10 maneuverability

This is Z-10 POV

 

[cabatli_53]

In addition, According to information from TEI manager, Turbine of TEI-TS-1500 have an overhaul period around 2500TAC at prototypes. Thanks to extensive R&D activities and metalurgical advancements on some ongoing programs, This period will be improved up to 5000TAC in serial production phase. This figure (If reached) will be impressive in many aspect. When I introduced the overhaul periods of Russian and European gas turbine engines, You will understand the tech level of the related countries in ters of metallurgy field.


TBO :

AL-41F1S Russian Su-35 engine: 1500h
AL-31F Russian Su-27/30 engines: 1000h
Al-222-25 Russian YAK engine: 600h
RD-33 : 300h (Each 50h critical component check)
EJ-200 engine: 1700h
M-88-2 engine: 1600h

TEI-TS-1500:

• 2500 TAC figure at prototypes ( 2-2,5 TAC considered to be 1h flight period) equals to 1000+ overhaul period. Turkey reached/overtook Russian AL-41/31 series in terms of metallurgy at turbine blades.
• 5000TAC equals to 2000+ hours overhaul period. That means Turkey will come/overtook to the level where US has reached with their F110-GE-129 SLEP at 4639 TAC figure (1855h) in 2003/2004. Today, US PW F135 engines has 3760h overhaul period which is the leader in this field.

 

[T-123456]

In addition, According to information from TEI manager, Turbine of TEI-TS-1500 have an overhaul period around 2500TAC at prototypes. Thanks to extensive R&D activities and metalurgical advancements on some ongoing programs, This period will be improved up to 5000TAC in serial production phase. This figure (If reached) will be impressive in many aspect. When I introduced the overhaul periods of Russian and European gas turbine engines, You will understand the tech level of metallurgy the related countries reached.


MTBO ( Mean time between overhaul):

AL-41F1S Russian Su-35 engine: 1000h
AL-31F Russian Su-27/30 engines: 1000h
Al-222-25 Russian YAK engine: 600h
RD-33 : 300h (Each 50h critical component check)
EJ-200 engine: 1700h
M-88-2 engine: 1600h

TEI-TS-1500:

• 2500 TAC figure at prototypes ( 2-2,5 TAC considered to be 1h flight period) equals to 1000+ overhaul period. Turkey reached/overtook Russian AL-41/31 series in terms of metallurgy at turbine blades.
• 5000TAC equals to 2000+ hours overhaul period. That means Turkey will come/overtook to the level where US has reached with their F110-GE-129 SLEP at 4639 TAC figure (1855h) in 2003/2004. Today, US PW F135 engines has 3760h overall period which is the leader in this field.

Bro,when is the engine ready?

 

[cabatli_53]

Bro,when is the engine ready?

This year bro ! 1 year for engineering tests and T-629 will be ready for operations in 2021.

 

[T-123456]

This year bro ! 1 year for engineering tests and T-629 will be ready for operations in 2021.

So,Pakistan will get the T-129s starting 2021 or later?

 

[cabatli_53]

So,Pakistan will get the T-129s starting 2021 or later?

We will see. I don't know what will happen. You know Just predictions.

 

[vi-va]

In addition, According to information from TEI manager, Turbine of TEI-TS-1500 have an overhaul period around 2500TAC at prototypes. Thanks to extensive R&D activities and metalurgical advancements on some ongoing programs, This period will be improved up to 5000TAC in serial production phase. This figure (If reached) will be impressive in many aspect. When I introduced the overhaul periods of Russian and European gas turbine engines, You will understand the tech level of the related countries in ters of metallurgy field.


MTBO ( Mean time between overhaul):

AL-41F1S Russian Su-35 engine: 1000h
AL-31F Russian Su-27/30 engines: 1000h
Al-222-25 Russian YAK engine: 600h
RD-33 : 300h (Each 50h critical component check)
EJ-200 engine: 1700h
M-88-2 engine: 1600h

TEI-TS-1500:

• 2500 TAC figure at prototypes ( 2-2,5 TAC considered to be 1h flight period) equals to 1000+ overhaul period. Turkey reached/overtook Russian AL-41/31 series in terms of metallurgy at turbine blades.
• 5000TAC equals to 2000+ hours overhaul period. That means Turkey will come/overtook to the level where US has reached with their F110-GE-129 SLEP at 4639 TAC figure (1855h) in 2003/2004. Today, US PW F135 engines has 3760h overhaul period which is the leader in this field.

1. Prototype is prototype. The real overhaul hour after mass production and deployment is the number count.
2. Also it's not professional to compare Turboshaft Engine with turbofan engines.
3. The data of overhaul hours of turbofan engines is so outdated. AL-31F is 1500 hours 13 years ago.(TBO, not Mean time between overhaul)

https://www.flightglobal.com/military-engines-russia/73364.article
Salyut-produced AL-31 powerplants are now qualified for a 1,500h time between overhauls (TBO) in 2007.

I don't want to slander anyone, but sorry to say Turkey is quite new to Engine. Turkey need at least decades to catch up.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

1. Prototype is prototype. The real overhaul hour after mass production and deployment is the number count.
2. Also it's not professional to compare Turboshaft Engine with turbofan engines.
3. The data of overhaul hours of turbofan engines is so outdated. AL-31F is 1500 hours 13 years ago.(TBO, not Mean time between overhaul)

https://www.flightglobal.com/military-engines-russia/73364.article
Salyut-produced AL-31 powerplants are now qualified for a 1,500h time between overhauls (TBO) in 2007.

I don't want to slander anyone, but sorry to say Turkey is quite new to Engine. Turkey need at least decades to catch up.

Morning shows the day....

The journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step...

Many a top engineer in the Turkish defense industries has had work experience at the R&D organizations of top Western defense companies, thanks to her NATO membership. For example, TEI Chief worked at GE’s Jet Engine R&D department for 10 years after earning his PhD from the Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. When he was offered to work at a top secret NASA project, he immediately left for Turkey....

 

[Armchair]

You're both probably right. What you say is likelier to come to pass.

But I would still hold off definitive judgment for the actual product in reality.

Let's see how it does -- but a truth is that it would still take some years to certify the quality, you can't make it up without actually operating it for years and accumulating tens of thousands of issue-free hours.

So, the technical inabilities aside (probable, but Turkey seems to think it can overcome those), there's still a time lag to prove reliability -- this is the definitive roadblock.

That said, the attack helicopter 'race' was lost the day India got the LCH. We don't have the fiscal means to match its numbers and quality, even with the Z-10ME. I mean, it'd be a 30-40 (tops) aircraft program, against nearly 200 LCH/AH-64E. Perhaps the Z-19E could be a lower cost equalizer for quantity (with a heavier 9-10-ton type for quality)?

Yes, I feel you on Pak military losing the numbers game here. The tables have been turned and they have the helicopter JF-17 and we have the dud LCA.

Even if (which is of very little chance) our Turkish Muslim brothers do manage to make the engine, how will the engine perform? If you are familiar with turbo fan / turbo prop / turbo shaft engines, they have very difficult maintenance issues. A lot of it takes decades for an experienced company to sort out. These issues are the greatest with high metallurgical requirements of heat exposed parts. And the replacement of such parts is an incredible cost and pain.

The solution to the strategic quandry of numbers is perhaps to buy the rights of the Z-19 / z-9 and produce them in large numbers. That would be a conventional linear solution.

My out of the box solution would be to go for mass production of fixed wing CAS, which would turn the tables somewhat asymmetrically on the Indians. My own research of 15 odd years indicates this is possible at a cost of $1 million to @4 million USD per piece.

If you combine this with import of smaller numbers of attack helicopters, you have a perfect combination. Attack helos for the mountaineous north, and fixed wing for the plains and desert regions.

Could you import large numbers of Aerospatiale Gazelles and create a Mirage program out of them? Would be a very low cost way to match Indian numbers. Doesn't have to be the Gazelle but any helicopter the PA chooses. I think the Mirage route here is begging to be played. It would build the industrial base for a future JF-17 program equivalent for helicopters. Could the South Africans help upgrade and redefine the fully overhauled Gazelles? I think so...

Here are some off-the-shelf solutions for fixed wing:

1. OV-10 Broncos (US may give these retired airframes up for free)
2. Italian AMX (Italians are willing to sell. About 30 are available and possibly very reasonable)
3. Old A-1 Skyraiders were refurbished and brought into service in the US during Vietnam. A ton of these are available and would cost pennies to the dollar. refurbishing these radial engined aircraft is a very low tech affair but these aircraft are beasts, despite their age, a bit like B-52s https://www.militarytimes.com/off-d...-place-in-the-hearts-of-us-troops-in-vietnam/
See also https://article107news.com/air-force-joke-turns-tide-afghan-war/
4. F-7PG or J-7Gs from China
5. Soon to be retired / already being phased out PLAAF CJ-6s could be converted to the lowest cost (and lowest capability) solution.

@Deino would find these solutions amusing and would probably nod to the Z-19 local production option