Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[araz]

There is a reason why PAA chose T-129 over Z-10 explained very well in here:

https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairfo/20200323.aspx#foo

So the key word here remains the engine. Thishas long been a hurdle in Chinese command over aviation technology. I am sure the Chinese will over come this eventually but like all things in life it requires time and patience. The Turkish are developing their own engines but that again is some years away. So both options are held back on account of the engine problem. We on the other hand have not even started with our specialized steel manufacturing and wind and hydroelectric Turbines much less jet and helo engines.
A

 

[Fieldmarshal]

There is a reason why PAA chose T-129 over Z-10 explained very well in here:

https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairfo/20200323.aspx#foo

When they arrived in Pak for trials they were a work in progress and PLA wanted input of PAA and its evaluation of the machine. Lots of PAA input where incoperated into the machine while it was in Pak and the rest and more when it went back.

And the result is the beast of a machine u see now

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Turkey is forcing the TS1400 into an "aggressive two-year schedule" -- I think they want to expedite its development, testing and certification for the PAA.

They want to export this helicopter, and the PAA would've been their largest buyer, so we retain a little leverage here.

Instead of rushing, Pak Army can take a page out of the PAF and PN's books -- take a step back. Go for the solution that (1) meets your needs and (2) raises the local technology base so that we can develop our own systems in the future (i.e. save foreign currency and maybe earn it through exports, either as part of a supply chain or standalone products).

I get that the Cobras are old and aging, but you got yourself here by ignoring the idea of developing an attack helicopter (even a Z-19-like scout with ATGMs) some years earlier. It's a sunk problem, and now you're trying to funnel funding to it in panic when you could've spent it to proactively prevent this issue in the future. If we don't, then this crap is going to keep happening again and again, and it'll get harder to solve.

Joining the T625 is on the table (Turkey offered it), and it seems that the ATAK with Turkish engines is the T629 (6-ton attack helicopter that could use the same engines, dynamic parts and other critical components as the T625). So, you can potentially join both. Bring 40-50% of its production to Pakistan, perhaps as a joint-TAI/PAC subsidiary (call it Indus Helicopters) and have that thing funnel work to smaller private-sector entities, invest in R&D, etc.

Prof. DEMİR: “In Pakistan the T129 ATAK Program, the Pakistani side has consented to give an additional 1-year period.”

Providing information on the Pakistan T129 ATAK Helicopter Program, the contract of which was signed in 2018 but no progress has been achieved regarding the export license of the engine to be procured from the U.S., Prof. DEMİR said, “The procedures of export license application for the engine are in progress. Pakistan has agreed to grant an additional one-year period regarding the export license. We're on standby. Could there be a solution of an alternative engine? We continue our efforts with the claim to meet this requirement with a unique engine (national engine development program). Could there be a quicker solution? Turkish Aerospace continues its negotiations on this issue. Export license is an issue that also concerns Pakistan as well as the U.S., and the Pakistani side continues to negotiate with all parties. We anticipate achieving a positive result. However, if no positive result is accomplished in one year and Pakistan sees the point that we reach in the development of the unique engine (TS1400) and if the all parties are willing to face all of the challenges and compromise over the unique solution, the national engine can be replace the existing engine. There are quality, test and certification processes in the development projects in respect to the schedule. Those processes can take much longer than expected for air platforms. The core engine was ignited .We're talking about an aggressive two-year schedule. Even when the engine is ready, there are certain extensions in the test and qualification processes. Since it is an air platform, we should not take risks. When setting the two-year schedule, we have always said that the issues that may arise in such a process should be severely scrutinized. In this respect, we can conclude that the next two-year process is a process in which all requirements and conditions need to be fulfilled.”

https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...heduled-for-2020-in-the-defence-industry-3819
​

 

[KaiserX]

Turkey is forcing the TS1400 into an "aggressive two-year schedule" -- I think they want to expedite its development, testing and certification for the PAA.

They want to export this helicopter, and the PAA would've been their largest buyer, so we retain a little leverage here.

Instead of rushing, Pak Army can take a page out of the PAF and PN's books -- take a step back. Go for the solution that (1) meets your needs and (2) raises the local technology base so that we can develop our own systems in the future (i.e. save foreign currency and maybe earn it through exports, either as part of a supply chain or standalone products).

I get that the Cobras are old and aging, but you got yourself here by ignoring the idea of developing an attack helicopter (even a Z-19-like scout with ATGMs) some years earlier. It's a sunk problem, and now you're trying to funnel funding to it in panic when you could've spent it to proactively prevent this issue in the future. If we don't, then this crap is going to keep happening again and again, and it'll get harder to solve.

Joining the T625 is on the table (Turkey offered it), and it seems that the ATAK with Turkish engines is the T629 (6-ton attack helicopter that could use the same engines, dynamic parts and other critical components as the T625). So, you can potentially join both. Bring 40-50% of its production to Pakistan, perhaps as a joint-TAI/PAC subsidiary (call it Indus Helicopters) and have that thing funnel work to smaller private-sector entities, invest in R&D, etc.

Prof. DEMİR: “In Pakistan the T129 ATAK Program, the Pakistani side has consented to give an additional 1-year period.”

Providing information on the Pakistan T129 ATAK Helicopter Program, the contract of which was signed in 2018 but no progress has been achieved regarding the export license of the engine to be procured from the U.S., Prof. DEMİR said, “The procedures of export license application for the engine are in progress. Pakistan has agreed to grant an additional one-year period regarding the export license. We're on standby. Could there be a solution of an alternative engine? We continue our efforts with the claim to meet this requirement with a unique engine (national engine development program). Could there be a quicker solution? Turkish Aerospace continues its negotiations on this issue. Export license is an issue that also concerns Pakistan as well as the U.S., and the Pakistani side continues to negotiate with all parties. We anticipate achieving a positive result. However, if no positive result is accomplished in one year and Pakistan sees the point that we reach in the development of the unique engine (TS1400) and if the all parties are willing to face all of the challenges and compromise over the unique solution, the national engine can be replace the existing engine. There are quality, test and certification processes in the development projects in respect to the schedule. Those processes can take much longer than expected for air platforms. The core engine was ignited .We're talking about an aggressive two-year schedule. Even when the engine is ready, there are certain extensions in the test and qualification processes. Since it is an air platform, we should not take risks. When setting the two-year schedule, we have always said that the issues that may arise in such a process should be severely scrutinized. In this respect, we can conclude that the next two-year process is a process in which all requirements and conditions need to be fulfilled.”

https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...heduled-for-2020-in-the-defence-industry-3819
​

PA would be foolish to even consider something which is so far off when they are flying 30-40 year old cobras. I say botch the whole thing and focus on chinese Z-10's. We could have had many of these birds by now

 

[Tipu7]

PA would be foolish to even consider something which is so far off when they are flying 30-40 year old cobras. I say botch the whole thing and focus on chinese Z-10's. We could have had many of these birds by now

Z10 are not good enough. (still)

When they arrived in Pak for trials they were a work in progress and PLA wanted input of PAA and its evaluation of the machine. Lots of PAA input where incoperated into the machine while it was in Pak and the rest and more when it went back.

And the result is the beast of a machine u see now

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Turkey is forcing the TS1400 into an "aggressive two-year schedule" -- I think they want to expedite its development, testing and certification for the PAA.

They want to export this helicopter, and the PAA would've been their largest buyer, so we retain a little leverage here.

Instead of rushing, Pak Army can take a page out of the PAF and PN's books -- take a step back. Go for the solution that (1) meets your needs and (2) raises the local technology base so that we can develop our own systems in the future (i.e. save foreign currency and maybe earn it through exports, either as part of a supply chain or standalone products).

I get that the Cobras are old and aging, but you got yourself here by ignoring the idea of developing an attack helicopter (even a Z-19-like scout with ATGMs) some years earlier. It's a sunk problem, and now you're trying to funnel funding to it in panic when you could've spent it to proactively prevent this issue in the future. If we don't, then this crap is going to keep happening again and again, and it'll get harder to solve.

Joining the T625 is on the table (Turkey offered it), and it seems that the ATAK with Turkish engines is the T629 (6-ton attack helicopter that could use the same engines, dynamic parts and other critical components as the T625). So, you can potentially join both. Bring 40-50% of its production to Pakistan, perhaps as a joint-TAI/PAC subsidiary (call it Indus Helicopters) and have that thing funnel work to smaller private-sector entities, invest in R&D, etc.

Prof. DEMİR: “In Pakistan the T129 ATAK Program, the Pakistani side has consented to give an additional 1-year period.”

Providing information on the Pakistan T129 ATAK Helicopter Program, the contract of which was signed in 2018 but no progress has been achieved regarding the export license of the engine to be procured from the U.S., Prof. DEMİR said, “The procedures of export license application for the engine are in progress. Pakistan has agreed to grant an additional one-year period regarding the export license. We're on standby. Could there be a solution of an alternative engine? We continue our efforts with the claim to meet this requirement with a unique engine (national engine development program). Could there be a quicker solution? Turkish Aerospace continues its negotiations on this issue. Export license is an issue that also concerns Pakistan as well as the U.S., and the Pakistani side continues to negotiate with all parties. We anticipate achieving a positive result. However, if no positive result is accomplished in one year and Pakistan sees the point that we reach in the development of the unique engine (TS1400) and if the all parties are willing to face all of the challenges and compromise over the unique solution, the national engine can be replace the existing engine. There are quality, test and certification processes in the development projects in respect to the schedule. Those processes can take much longer than expected for air platforms. The core engine was ignited .We're talking about an aggressive two-year schedule. Even when the engine is ready, there are certain extensions in the test and qualification processes. Since it is an air platform, we should not take risks. When setting the two-year schedule, we have always said that the issues that may arise in such a process should be severely scrutinized. In this respect, we can conclude that the next two-year process is a process in which all requirements and conditions need to be fulfilled.”

https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...heduled-for-2020-in-the-defence-industry-3819
​

Among all of the folks Paks should be the most understanding of this "eat grass" attitude regarding the Turkish indigenous engine development efforts...

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

PA would be foolish to even consider something which is so far off when they are flying 30-40 year old cobras. I say botch the whole thing and focus on chinese Z-10's. We could have had many of these birds by now

This is assuming the Z-10MEs are good enough. If they aren't, then we'll be back here in 10-15 years spelling out the same issue. Not only that, but the PAA itself said it now wants to "match" the capabilities India's getting with the AH-64E.

So, already the Z-10ME isn't going solve the issue here because it lacks the payload of the AH-64E (if not more, such as the Apache Guardian's ability to control UAVs, etc). I don't want to double-spend on another type when we could've handled this right from the start by telling the Turks (or Chinese) to add X,Y,Z into their platforms.

The Turks are in better light to me because they're upfront about offering other goods (e.g., co-production). This is the activity we need to actually support our own industry. And unlike the Chinese, we do have a little more leverage in that our orders do impact economies-of-scale for the Turks, we can exact other gains. For one thing, we pushed the Turks to offer bespoke credit lines (for T129/MILGEM) when they previously had no policy for such; we can take it a few steps further.

The '30-40 year-old Cobra' point is the cost of not executing a domestic attack helicopter much earlier (or even 10-15 years ago). I know for a fact that folks within the PA and PAF were even bringing the idea to the table (something along the lines of what India did with the Dhruv/LCH, but with China or France -- when such things were put to our table). The PAF and PN sorted it out, it's time for the PA to do the same.

 

[LKJ86]

So, already the Z-10ME isn't going solve the issue here because it lacks the payload of the AH-64E

Are you comparing 6-ton Z-10 with 10-ton AH-64?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Are you comparing 6-ton Z-10 with 10-ton AH-64?

No. My point was that the PAA wants to 'match' the capabilities of the AH-64E, so we know that the Z-10ME wouldn't do it. Rather, the PAA will seek yet another attack helicopter anyways.

It can't go around saying, "we want to match the AH-64E" and then lobby for something that obviously isn't meant for that, leaving said gap open and causing the country to spend even more money.

Instead, it should co-fund a program that actually meets those requirements spec-for-spec -- like the ATAK-2 or China's rumoured heavyweight attack helicopter. Or if the PAA's idea of 'matching' has to do with other things (e.g. mmW radar, links to UAVs, etc) then get those added to Z-10ME/T629. Either way, it's going to need time to do it.

 

[Blacklight]

No. My point was that the PAA wants to 'match' the capabilities of the AH-64E, so we know that the Z-10ME wouldn't do it. Rather, the PAA will seek yet another attack helicopter anyways.

It can't go around saying, "we want to match the AH-64E" and then lobby for something that obviously isn't meant for that, leaving said gap open and causing the country to spend even more money.

Instead, it should co-fund a program that actually meets those requirements spec-for-spec -- like the ATAK-2 or China's rumoured heavyweight attack helicopter.

Brother, In your opinion what options does PAA have, off the shelf?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Brother, In your opinion what options does PAA have, off the shelf?

Basically, ITAR-free options should be doable.

For off-the-shelf, the only currently available options are the Z-10ME and Tiger, but it was uninterested in the latter (shaky ties with France, costly, questionable long-term support, etc). Otherwise, it'll have to wait for newer ATAK/Z-10 versions, or wait for the Italian AW249 (but with the ITAR-free Safran engine).

Speaking of AW249, that's another option. It's an attack helicopter version of the AW149, so in the 8-9-ton class (around AH-1Z-size). Right now the Italians are leaning towards a GE engine, but the ITAR-free Safran engine (from the AW189K) is on the table for anyone who needs it.

You can get creative and try tackling the attack helicopter as well as utility and special mission helicopter needs with one core platform. So, AW249 for attack and the AW189K for transport, utility, CSAR, naval operations, etc; same engine and critical parts.

The main question though is how willing Leonardo would be to transfer technology and allow Pakistan to take on meaningful work-share. I don't think they'd be as open as the Turks are right now, but the door for that is closing too.

 

[LKJ86]

For off-the-shelf, the only currently available options are the Z-10ME and Tiger, but it was uninterested in the latter (shaky ties with France, costly, questionable long-term support, etc). Otherwise, it'll have to wait for newer ATAK/Z-10 versions, or wait for the Italian AW249 (but with the ITAR-free Safran engine).

Why not consider the options from Russia?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Why not consider the options from Russia?

Because there's a 99% chance of the US sanctioning Pakistan, at least to the extent of stopping spare parts support for our F-16s, C-130s, P-3Cs, etc. Moreover, the US is of a few places where Pakistan maintains a positive trade balance, so the US can also curb its imports from Pakistan and further harm our economy. Not a risk worth taking.

 

[LKJ86]

Because there's a 99% chance of the US sanctioning Pakistan, at least to the extent of stopping spare parts support for our F-16s, C-130s, P-3Cs, etc. Moreover, the US is of a few places where Pakistan maintains a positive trade balance, so the US can also curb its imports from Pakistan and further harm our economy. Not a risk worth taking.

IMHO, in near future, US would do the same to the weapons exports of China and maybe Turkey.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

IMHO, in near future, US would do the same to the weapons exports of China and maybe Turkey.

It's possible, but remember, Russia wasn't as economically integrated to the US as China and even Turkey are. The US must maintain a special approach with China -- delicate balance between animosity and cooperation. Ties with Turkey cooled, yes, however it's nowhere near as rocky as US ties with Iran/Russia.

However, as it stands today, the US can come down very hard on Pakistan if it buys from the Russians. There's an actual legislation in place (CAATSA) to allow for this; whereas with the Chinese and Turks, it (if anything) is a back-channel dispute, one where Pak can trade X for Y from the US (as it's not illegal to trade with either).

Besides, JF-17 is using Russia's engines...

But under a preexisting agreement.