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Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

Yep.

One idea is picking up Denel's Rooivalk Mk2.

Denel is mostly using the same design, but I think there's scope for replacing the engine and dynamic parts with newer versions. Remember, the Rooivalk is derived from the Puma, so Pakistan could speak to Airbus Helicopters and Safran Group to provide new engines and critical components (from the H225m Caracal).

It's doable, though it may require us to give Airbus something in return, like another helicopter order. The key point though is that neither the Makila 2A engine or the H225M are 'new' systems. They're extensively updated versions of older technology, so getting deep ToT for them isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Again, it depends on what we're willing to give to Airbus. First, I'd agree with Airbus to pay a license fee for every Rooivalk Mk2 sold overseas (assuming we get exports, which I doubt). Second, we can look at replacing our older Mi-17s and Sea Kings with the H225M, which would have deep commonality with the Rooivalk Mk2. Finally, but in the long-term, we can gradually replace the rest of the Mi-17/171s with H225Ms.

We look at manufacturing the Rooivalk Mk2 (with South Africa), and we co-produce (but mostly import) the H225M from Europe. It's a win-win for all sides involved, and probably not the most expensive option either.

The alternative to that is that we go completely clean-sheet by joining in Turkey's ATAK-2 and 10-ton General Purpose Helicopter (GPH). The ATAK-2 and GPH will likely use the same engine, critical parts, etc, so the deep commonality is there as well. And we know for a fact that Turkey is looking for partners to share in its projects, which would help it build economies-of-scale, distribute R&D funding, etc.

We can gradually replace the Puma and Mi-171 with the GPH, while make the ATAK-2 our mainstay attack helicopter (esp. for anti-armour operations). This approach will see us integrate our supply chain with Turkey as well.

Finally, we could also work with Leonardo on the AW149 and AH249. Like the ATAK-2/GPH and Rooivalk/Caracal, the AW149 and AW249 will have deep commonality with one another. The engine would come from Safran Group, so an ITAR-free option. I'm not sure how much Leonardo will share with us, but if we commit to large orders and foot a portion of the development costs, we should get something meaningful (50/50 co-production).

If we want to get imaginative, we can also work with Turkey on a custom 6-7-ton variant of the T129. So, it'd use the Turkish engine and co-developed avionics and weapons. But we ask to manufacture it turnkey in Pakistan (while Turkey moves onto the ATAK-2). We make this helicopter our mainstay, manufacture 120~180 of them.
 
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We need local production for helicopters.
So true only possible with Denel. Pak has to make a choice here simple.
@Quwa Rooviak 2 seems great and heavy duty with 3 hard points each side. What ur take on cost and off the shelf purchase????
 
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So true only possible with Denel. Pak has to make a choice here simple.
@Quwa Rooviak 2 seems great and heavy duty with 3 hard points each side. What ur take on cost and off the shelf purchase????
Not sure about cost, but I believe most of it was a write down from the 1990s. So, any new cost is the cost of integrating new systems and of course building new prototypes. Can't be more than $500 m, @denel ??
 
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Not sure about cost, but I believe most of it was a write down from the 1990s. So, any new cost is the cost of integrating new systems and of course building new prototypes. Can't be more than $500 m, @denel ??
question did Pak paid anything to turkey or US already paid what will be theior future?? Both money and material???
 
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Yep.

One idea is picking up Denel's Rooivalk Mk2.

Denel is mostly using the same design, but I think there's scope for replacing the engine and dynamic parts with newer versions. Remember, the Rooivalk is derived from the Puma, so Pakistan could speak to Airbus Helicopters and Safran Group to provide new engines and critical components (from the H225m Caracal).

It's doable, though it may require us to give Airbus something in return, like another helicopter order. The key point though is that neither the Makila 2A engine or the H225M are 'new' systems. They're extensively updated versions of older technology, so getting deep ToT for them isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Again, it depends on what we're willing to give to Airbus. First, I'd agree with Airbus to pay a license fee for every Rooivalk Mk2 sold overseas (assuming we get exports, which I doubt). Second, we can look at replacing our older Mi-17s and Sea Kings with the H225M, which would have deep commonality with the Rooivalk Mk2. Finally, but in the long-term, we can gradually replace the rest of the Mi-17/171s with H225Ms.

We look at manufacturing the Rooivalk Mk2 (with South Africa), and we co-produce (but mostly import) the H225M from Europe. It's a win-win for all sides involved, and probably not the most expensive option either.

The alternative to that is that we go completely clean-sheet by joining in Turkey's ATAK-2 and 10-ton General Purpose Helicopter (GPH). The ATAK-2 and GPH will likely use the same engine, critical parts, etc, so the deep commonality is there as well. And we know for a fact that Turkey is looking for partners to share in its projects, which would help it build economies-of-scale, distribute R&D funding, etc.

We can gradually replace the Puma and Mi-171 with the GPH, while make the ATAK-2 our mainstay attack helicopter (esp. for anti-armour operations). This approach will see us integrate our supply chain with Turkey as well.

Finally, we could also work with Leonardo on the AW149 and AH249. Like the ATAK-2/GPH and Rooivalk/Caracal, the AW149 and AW249 will have deep commonality with one another. The engine would come from Safran Group, so an ITAR-free option. I'm not sure how much Leonardo will share with us, but if we commit to large orders and foot a portion of the development costs, we should get something meaningful (50/50 co-production).

If we want to get imaginative, we can also work with Turkey on a custom 6-7-ton variant of the T129. So, it'd use the Turkish engine and co-developed avionics and weapons. But we ask to manufacture it turnkey in Pakistan (while Turkey moves onto the ATAK-2). We make this helicopter our mainstay, manufacture 120~180 of them.
Either Italian beacuse we already using theior Aw139 or South African route puma and Rooviak combo will work for Us I don't see any issues with engines from Airbus we can make PIA deal with them too. Turkish engines are yrs away look another 7 - 10 yrs to mature we need something ASAP. Army should look out of box solution once for all like JF17
 
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Not sure about cost, but I believe most of it was a write down from the 1990s. So, any new cost is the cost of integrating new systems and of course building new prototypes. Can't be more than $500 m, @denel ??
Correct, it is much less than that; I believe rooivalt/oryx route was always the best way - 2 birds with one stone. A complete home industry for medium lift and gunship at same time. I still remember when we offered it to Turks back then and they were lobbied hard by US and EU consortiums and we lost out.

There is an upgrade underway already. Was asked if i was interested but I declined. I no longer can see well.
 
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Correct, it is much less than that; I believe rooivalt/oryx route was always the best way - 2 birds with one stone. A complete home industry for medium lift and gunship at same time. I still remember when we offered it to Turks back then and they were lobbied hard by US and EU consortiums and we lost out.
Instead of the Oryx, I'd pair the Rooivalk Mk2 with the H225M Caracal. The main reason for this is to secure Airbus' support, so select one of their existing products. Pakistan can slot in the H225M to replace its older Mi-17s and the Pumas, and over the long-term, phase-out the remaining Mi-17/171s with the H225M.

Either Italian beacuse we already using theior Aw139 or South African route puma and Rooviak combo will work for Us I don't see any issues with engines from Airbus we can make PIA deal with them too. Turkish engines are yrs away look another 7 - 10 yrs to mature we need something ASAP. Army should look out of box solution once for all like JF17
The Leonardo AH249 sits in a good size/payload range (8-9 tons), similar to the AH-1Z. In this case, you can standardize on the AH249 for most attack helicopter units, and then pick-up the AW149 to replace the Pumas. However, a navalized variant of the AW149 for the PN would also be neat, it should be small enough for the PN's future frigates/corvettes too.

However, I'd prefer the Rooivalk Mk2/Caracal route. Yes, it's older technology, but it works and Airbus/Safran might be more willing to release ToT for it than any of the new stuff.

In this case I would stick with the T129 because it works well in high-altitude environments (we can build a high-alt nucleus with T129, AW139 and H125M), but for anti-armour, build a large attack helicopter force with the Rooivalk Mk2. I'd aim for disproportionate numbers of attack helicopters.
 
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Thread turning garbage with endless wishlists and 'ideas' - repeat them a hundred times!!


The PAA sticking to the T129 ATAK despite all the delays created by US hints that the people privy to the matter still see chances of the helo arriving in Pak.

Otherwise, the ATAK contract would have been scrapped and that with the Chinese knocking at the door.

Mi-17 replacement talk is laughable - the only helo that can replace Mi-17 in PAA is Mi-17 itself - and it already is.
 
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Thread turning garbage with endless wishlists and 'ideas' - repeat them a hundred times!!


The PAA sticking to the T129 ATAK despite all the delays created by US hints that the people privy to the matter still see chances of the helo arriving in Pak.

Otherwise, the ATAK contract would have been scrapped and that with the Chinese knocking at the door.

Mi-17 replacement talk is laughable - the only helo that can replace Mi-17 in PAA is Mi-17 itself - and it already is.
Sorry boss :(
 
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Thread turning garbage with endless wishlists and 'ideas' - repeat them a hundred times!!


The PAA sticking to the T129 ATAK despite all the delays created by US hints that the people privy to the matter still see chances of the helo arriving in Pak.

Otherwise, the ATAK contract would have been scrapped and that with the Chinese knocking at the door.

Mi-17 replacement talk is laughable - the only helo that can replace Mi-17 in PAA is Mi-17 itself - and it already is.
but roovalk is a great catch!
 
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personally I am not anticipating anything positive. Lets see what actually happens.

What will happen is that if timely action is not taken then Pakistan Army's Aviation wing will be going through its version of the "lost decade".

Pakistan has given Turkey only one year delay limit. I hope the planners are busy with a contingency plan.
 
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What will happen is that if timely action is not taken then Pakistan Army's Aviation wing will be going through its version of the "lost decade".

Pakistan has given Turkey only one year delay limit. I hope the planners are busy with a contingency plan.
I wouldn't be that disheartened, there are options on the table that were not present 15 years ago. Today you are spoilt for choices.
 
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I wouldn't be that disheartened, there are options on the table that were not present 15 years ago. Today you are spoilt for choices.

True but those choices need to be made in a timely manner and not get spoilt like the Indians.

Remember, Pakistan started trialing the Z-10s in 2015, it was rejected and T-129 ATAK was selected in 2018. It also ordred AH-1Zs in 2016 which is now frozen. Pakistan was supposed to start receiving both platforms from 2018 onwards. It's now 2020.

I hope you wouldn't want any Pakistani Prime Minister saying in the future, "Agar apna helicopter hota, to phir yeh na hota."
 
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