Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[Imran Khan]

View attachment 487442 A genuine compliment or exaggeration to sell more?
Big words
@Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Armchair @khanasifm @fatman17 @Windjammer

i have seen the real national interest

 

[Aamir Hussain]

MP was and still used by a lot of top line Special Forces units in CQB. So it was not a bad buy at all. However, as a section lead weapon it has little to offer and a 9 mm weapon was not suited for this role.

 

[Bratva]

Genuine and true. Pakistan Army tests, tests, and tests. I have had Chuck Yeager say the same thing about our testing and training.

Wow. You are ancient baba jee.

 

[-------]

As I have suggested many times before, Turkey is now officially the other door for European and other western technology to be "absorbed" and sold to countries where direct sales are not possible. This case is a great example. However, i won't doubt that the Turkish honour brigade will come after me and ridicule me for my opinions. I guess nobody is allowed to think freely, specifically if it questions the military industrial complex of any country, Turkey and China included.

You've worded it in a much better way then you have in the past, so we'll give you a pass.

Back to thread topic, T-129BII variant which Pakistan has requested 20 of is reported to be integrated with CATS E/O turret.
https://www.aselsan.com.tr/en-us/press-room/Brochures/Electro-Optic-Systems/CATS_ENG.pdf

 

[ghazi52]

AhmAd IbrAhim‏ @AhmAdTipu7
Inside @TUSAS_EN Turkish T129-BII is being developed within a lab environment on a 'Iron Bird'.

 

[Bratva]

You've worded it in a much better way then you have in the past, so we'll give you a pass.

Back to thread topic, T-129BII variant which Pakistan has requested 20 of is reported to be integrated with CATS E/O turret.
https://www.aselsan.com.tr/en-us/press-room/Brochures/Electro-Optic-Systems/CATS_ENG.pdf
View attachment 487606

Block I is not equipped with this EO turret ?

 

[-------]

Block I is not equipped with this EO turret ?

Block I uses AselFlir-300T.
https://www.aselsan.com.tr/en-us/press-room/Brochures/Electro-Optic-Systems/ASELFLIR300T_ENG.pdf

 

[merzifonlu]

The AselFlir-300T is an effective EO Turret. But the CATS are lighter and more modern EO Turret. There is almost half the weight difference between the two.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Should order up to 100 helicopters to fully retire the cobra fleet or donate it to Palestine defence force

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Their arrogant arab superiority *** wont accept from us lowly ajmis

Should order up to 100 helicopters to fully retire the cobra fleet or donate it to Palestine defence force

 

[Windjammer]

View attachment 487442 A genuine compliment or exaggeration to sell more?
Big words
@Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Armchair @khanasifm @fatman17 @Windjammer

#

Pakistani army aviation pilots have been making headlines to make any manufacturer proud and we all know how some latest products failed to meet PAA specifications.
And if this is exaggeration then i wonder how many countries will be bestowed with such credibility.

 

[araz]

Their arrogant arab superiority *** wont accept from us lowly ajmis

You cant just hand over products from third providers to anyone you like. This notion is simply ridiculous. It is not a matter of Arab superiority. There is no training infrastructure whatsoever. And how are you going to train them to fly. Where are they going to house them and who will look after these birds. Plus do you not have enough enemies without taking on another fìght.
A

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

@Oscar @Horus

Knowing that the PAA has 30 T129Bs on order and, in all likelihood, it could potentially procure the ATAK-2 in 10 years (when available), do you think there's enough scope to go even lighter in terms of attack helicopters?

China and Japan have shown that even with a 4 to 4.5 ton (MTOW), tandem-seated design (e.g. Z-19E, OH-1) you can have an integrated EO/IR turret with SALH ATGM and 70 mm rockets. Sure, there are clear range and payload limits, but the cost of a "Cobra rehash" is markedly much less than a larger attack helicopter.

With the T129, the PAA has effectively handled its high-altitude operating ops environment, which had been a major strain on the AH-1F/S over the past decade. Given how fiscal limits will constrain the PAA's ability to pick-up many 8+ ton attack helicopter designs (or at least at a fast enough pace), perhaps a Z-19E/OH-1-like design has merits?

Such helicopters can operate in lower altitude CAS environments (deserts, plains), yet - qualitatively speaking - offer the core anti-tank and anti-infantry capability of the ATAK. But the downside is defensibility (not enough power for more armour, entirely reliant on the self-protection suite).

Likewise, while the procurement cost is certain to be lower, you'd need more of the small attack helicopter to match the impact of a larger counterpart. That could add to the long-term operating cost of having them, and - possibly - their impact could be matched by a fewer number of ATAK/ATAK-2.

Really, the question is ... would you have enough money to afford the necessary number of ATAK-2 or would you need to think about a cheaper/lighter platform as a means to spread CAS coverage across more of your force?

Still, the alternative is rational as well.

Just double-down on the platform you chose (T129) and, in turn, gradually build-up. You have a 30-40+ year life-cycle, so if you just issue incremental orders on an annual (or at least regular) basis of 4-6 per year in 10-15 years, you can add 40-60+ more ATAK/-2.

In fact, in contrast to the Heavy/Light combination India is taking via the AH-64E and LCH, the ATAK-2 would cut down the middle as a 8-ton AH-1Z-class system. Your approach with such a platform would be to consolidate on that one, medium-weight platform, but your final numbers would sit between India's Apache and LCH forces.

 

[cabatli_53]

Aselsan completes first modernised Bahraini AH-1, Glass cockpit, Mission computer, navigation system, weapon system and E/O modernised.

@Combat-Master

 

[Kompromat]

I tend to think that the UCAVs will under cut attack helicopters in a decade as their operational doctrines evolve and new uses are found.

@Oscar @Horus

Knowing that the PAA has 30 T129Bs on order and, in all likelihood, it could potentially procure the ATAK-2 in 10 years (when available), do you think there's enough scope to go even lighter in terms of attack helicopters?

China and Japan have shown that even with a 4 to 4.5 ton (MTOW), tandem-seated design (e.g. Z-19E, OH-1) you can have an integrated EO/IR turret with SALH ATGM and 70 mm rockets. Sure, there are clear range and payload limits, but the cost of a "Cobra rehash" is markedly much less than a larger attack helicopter.

With the T129, the PAA has effectively handled its high-altitude operating ops environment, which had been a major strain on the AH-1F/S over the past decade. Given how fiscal limits will constrain the PAA's ability to pick-up many 8+ ton attack helicopter designs (or at least at a fast enough pace), perhaps a Z-19E/OH-1-like design has merits?

Such helicopters can operate in lower altitude CAS environments (deserts, plains), yet - qualitatively speaking - offer the core anti-tank and anti-infantry capability of the ATAK. But the downside is defensibility (not enough power for more armour, entirely reliant on the self-protection suite).

Likewise, while the procurement cost is certain to be lower, you'd need more of the small attack helicopter to match the impact of a larger counterpart. That could add to the long-term operating cost of having them, and - possibly - their impact could be matched by a fewer number of ATAK/ATAK-2.

Really, the question is ... would you have enough money to afford the necessary number of ATAK-2 or would you need to think about a cheaper/lighter platform as a means to spread CAS coverage across more of your force?

Still, the alternative is rational as well.

Just double-down on the platform you chose (T129) and, in turn, gradually build-up. You have a 30-40+ year life-cycle, so if you just issue incremental orders on an annual (or at least regular) basis of 4-6 per year in 10-15 years, you can add 40-60+ more ATAK/-2.

In fact, in contrast to the Heavy/Light combination India is taking via the AH-64E and LCH, the ATAK-2 would cut down the middle as a 8-ton AH-1Z-class system. Your approach with such a platform would be to consolidate on that one, medium-weight platform, but your final numbers would sit between India's Apache and LCH forces.