Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[Imran Khan]

now i am too late man bring any of them but buy new choppers

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Its not just the birds. Its also the support system for those birds and co production too.

30 helicopters for 1.5 billion USD?

Seems PML-N folks are getting lots of commission. They appear more desperate to get the deal through.

 

[Zarvan]

It's not an easy decision to make, and it's even harder when money is not available.

For-instance, it took Turkey from 1998 to 2007 to come to a decision, then first flight happened in 2009, introduction into armed forces in 2014.

Took Turkey 16 years and we are still not complete weapon system, and work will always continue to improve T-129.

Your company has started to work on T-130 and you are already producing T-129 so I think in next two years we can see first T-130.

 

[Mick]

For Pakistan, Turkish T-129 would come with Russian engines, that's why the long delay.

Sorry, but, who shoud do the integration work for the new engines?

 

[cabatli_53]

Your company has started to work on T-130 and you are already producing T-129 so I think in next two years we can see first T-130.

It is planned domestic turboshaft and transmission units to be used on Atak-2 so Prototype and serial production is not solely dependant on succesfull development of fuselage but power units of helicopter. Atak-2 will be one of the strongest marketing tool of Turkish industry that no country will have a saying, If we consider the national contribution of domestic subsystems to be integrated in Atak-2.

 

[Zarvan]

It is planned domestic turboshaft and transmission units to be used on Atak-2 so Prototype and serial production is not solely dependant on succesfull development of fuselage but power units of helicopter. Atak-2 will be one of the strongest marketing tool of Turkish industry that no country will have a saying, If we consider the national contribution of domestic subsystems to be integrated in Atak-2.

Well if you are going to come up with local engine than it can take time or you may get luck soon but let see

 

[araz]

Your company has started to work on T-130 and you are already producing T-129 so I think in next two years we can see first T-130.

Sheikh Zarvi.
Yaar please look at the time lines. It is not possible and will take +5 yrs and 3-4 minimum. A redesign with change of engine and other equipment will need testing and ratherthan the platform it is that which takes time.
S

 

[Zarvan]

Sheikh Zarvi.
Yaar please look at the time lines. It is not possible and will take +5 yrs and 3-4 minimum. A redesign with change of engine and other equipment will need testing and ratherthan the platform it is that which takes time.
S

I thought they are buying the engine which is available in the market but it seem they are going to make a new one and yes that would take time and I hardly doubt that the design of helicopter will be different. Main delay will be due to new engine. And I said first prototype can come in two years and even than I didn't knew about the new engine

 

[cabatli_53]

I thought they are buying the engine which is available in the market but it seem they are going to make a new one and yes that would take time and I hardly doubt the design of helicopter will not be that different. Main delay will be due to new engine. And I said first prototype can come in two years and even than I didn't knew about the new engine

Here is the design of Atak-2 with lots of changes/additions on size, ew, dircm, maingun...etc with increased payload and MTOW capacity.

Domestic transmission will start flying with T-625 utility helo project in 2018 because both helicopter (T-625 and Atak-2) will use same domestic engine and transmission.

 

[Muhammad Omar]

So is Pakistan Army gonna wait for few more years for ATAK-2???

 

[Zarvan]

So is Pakistan Army gonna wait for few more years for ATAK-2???

No I doubt that but our requirement is much bigger most likely more than 100 attack helicopters so most likely we would order 30 or more T-129 and after that wait for T-130

 

[Signalian]

No I doubt that but our requirement is much bigger most likely more than 100 attack helicopters so most likely we would order 30 or more T-129 and after that wait for T-130

how is our requirement more than 100 gunships?

 

[Zarvan]

how is our requirement more than 100 gunships?

The area where will have to fight the size of enemy we can't afford to have only 60 attack helicopters. Specially when India will bring Air Defense also. We need 100 + dedicated attack helicopters to operate from Karachi up to Himalayas.

 

[Signalian]

The area where will have to fight the size of enemy we can't afford to have only 60 attack helicopters. Specially when India will bring Air Defense also. We need 100 + dedicated attack helicopters to operate from Karachi up to Himalayas.

100+ attack helicopters is an over kill.

Gunships were first bought as anti-tank platform to stop an armoured thrust in its tracks. They were deployed in Multan so they can either be switched towards Punjab near Sialkot or Kasur and otherwise towards the closer desert areas ranging from Bahawalpur to Badin.

It iss easier for gunships to operate in Punjab regions than the desert because of natural cover like trees etc. Flying very low and using TOW's to take out enemy MBT's from a distance of 3000-4000m. Still, in Punjab there are lots of natural obstacles that can slow down enemy's armour advance.

It becomes harder in the desert region with no natural obstacle with the exception of sand dunes which are widely scattered but provides better visibility. During 1965 and 1971, the desert area wasnt given much importance. After Exercise/Operation Brass Tracks by IA, the desert region was deemed important and was found difficult to defend by PA. Regarding IA AD assets, ZSU-23 Shilka was the main AD weapon for accompanying IA armoured forces in the past, which was not such a big threat to AH-1 operated by PA. Now with induction of Tunguska and other missile carrying AD system, the threat has enlarged. In response, PA has ordered advanced Gunships like AH-1Z, not necessarily increased numbers but improved technology. It doesnt mean that AH-1F are rendered useless now as in a Gunship Vs AD scenario, it comes down to planning, information/recon, tactics, terrain, strategy etc. With modern UAV's and armed UCAV's, the Gunships have found a capable support against AD.

There is no MBT threat in the mountain regions of Himalayas, considering that PA got AH-1 primarily for anti-tank role. The requirement in mountains is for transport helicopters, all categories, light to heavy. If air support is required, it can be provided by light armed recon helicopters too, armed with 12.7mm or mini gun or Hydra rockets. The heavy firepower in mountains is provided by in-direct fire like artillery, mortar etc. A gunship doesn't use indirect weapon system but LOS system mostly. Its is easier for a gunship to get ambushed by enemy AD on peaks.

In WOT, the AH-1 was called in with Hydra rockets along with MBT's for COIN ops to minimise casualties so the role of gunship changed here, however Gunships are always seen flying with armoured formations in exercises, not necessarily in exercises involving only infantry formations, which means that against IA the role of AH-1 has not changed.

The 51 AH-1 F/S that PA operates are actually more than enough to counter an IA Armoured Corps thrust. Hypothetically, carrying 8 TOW each, combined they can target roughly 350-400 Armoured vehicles if all used in one scenario. Losing 1/3 of force out of 1000+ armoured vehicles, the IA offensive will ground to a halt. Even if up to 75%(37-40) of AH-1F/S are lost in this action, the job is done already. IA doesn't have resources to start an armoured Corps sized thrust at a new sector especially in Punjab region and the PA ground Anti-tank systems and modern AH-1Z/UCAV's have not been considered in scenario. Although, the reality can vary but role of Gunship will be similar. its just to give an idea of the functionality of a Gunship in PA.

The issue which can arise is the weapon, TOW. Just like Baktar-Shikan, it keeps the operator engaged in guiding the missile till the target is hit and Gunship is kept hovering, remaining at one place in air during all this procedure. Although upgraded with Night capability, it still lacks a MmW radar and modern ECM suite.

The solution is not really numbers but a modern Gunship with advanced ATGM system like Hellfire-II or HJ-10 or UMTAS, fire and forget missiles and advanced sensors like HMD, MmW radar, improved FCS as well as ECM systems, which the current AH-1F lacks. A Gunship which can control UAV's is also very valuable, the AH-64D and later versions have this capability.

The numbers can still be kept same around 50-65 Gunships, considering that older AH-1F/S are retired and with newer Gunships capabilities will increase many fold. I think the new Gunships are being acquired to retire older systems. The money can be spent to buy more MRAP's or advanced MBT's like Oplot as a stop gap.

 

[khanasifm]

Its not just the birds. Its also the support system for those birds and co production too.

15 Zulu were for 900 million to billion along with weapons and training

30 for 1.5 along with tech transfer and parts manufacturing ??

Cheaper then 12 Zulu’s comparison