Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[khanasifm]

Looks like for desert and planes air power is cheaper then having large force to defend

 

[Zarvan]

100+ attack helicopters is an over kill.

Gunships were first bought as anti-tank platform to stop an armoured thrust in its tracks. They were deployed in Multan so they can either be switched towards Punjab near Sialkot or Kasur and otherwise towards the closer desert areas ranging from Bahawalpur to Badin.

It iss easier for gunships to operate in Punjab regions than the desert because of natural cover like trees etc. Flying very low and using TOW's to take out enemy MBT's from a distance of 3000-4000m. Still, in Punjab there are lots of natural obstacles that can slow down enemy's armour advance.

It becomes harder in the desert region with no natural obstacle with the exception of sand dunes which are widely scattered but provides better visibility. During 1965 and 1971, the desert area wasnt given much importance. After Exercise/Operation Brass Tracks by IA, the desert region was deemed important and was found difficult to defend by PA. Regarding IA AD assets, ZSU-23 Shilka was the main AD weapon for accompanying IA armoured forces in the past, which was not such a big threat to AH-1 operated by PA. Now with induction of Tunguska and other missile carrying AD system, the threat has enlarged. In response, PA has ordered advanced Gunships like AH-1Z, not necessarily increased numbers but improved technology. It doesnt mean that AH-1F are rendered useless now as in a Gunship Vs AD scenario, it comes down to planning, information/recon, tactics, terrain, strategy etc. With modern UAV's and armed UCAV's, the Gunships have found a capable support against AD.

There is no MBT threat in the mountain regions of Himalayas, considering that PA got AH-1 primarily for anti-tank role. The requirement in mountains is for transport helicopters, all categories, light to heavy. If air support is required, it can be provided by light armed recon helicopters too, armed with 12.7mm or mini gun or Hydra rockets. The heavy firepower in mountains is provided by in-direct fire like artillery, mortar etc. A gunship doesn't use indirect weapon system but LOS system mostly. Its is easier for a gunship to get ambushed by enemy AD on peaks.

In WOT, the AH-1 was called in with Hydra rockets along with MBT's for COIN ops to minimise casualties so the role of gunship changed here, however Gunships are always seen flying with armoured formations in exercises, not necessarily in exercises involving only infantry formations, which means that against IA the role of AH-1 has not changed.

The 51 AH-1 F/S that PA operates are actually more than enough to counter an IA Armoured Corps thrust. Hypothetically, carrying 8 TOW each, combined they can target roughly 350-400 Armoured vehicles if all used in one scenario. Losing 1/3 of force out of 1000+ armoured vehicles, the IA offensive will ground to a halt. Even if up to 75%(37-40) of AH-1F/S are lost in this action, the job is done already. IA doesn't have resources to start an armoured Corps sized thrust at a new sector especially in Punjab region and the PA ground Anti-tank systems and modern AH-1Z/UCAV's have not been considered in scenario. Although, the reality can vary but role of Gunship will be similar. its just to give an idea of the functionality of a Gunship in PA.

The issue which can arise is the weapon, TOW. Just like Baktar-Shikan, it keeps the operator engaged in guiding the missile till the target is hit and Gunship is kept hovering, remaining at one place in air during all this procedure. Although upgraded with Night capability, it still lacks a MmW radar and modern ECM suite.

The solution is not really numbers but a modern Gunship with advanced ATGM system like Hellfire-II or HJ-10 or UMTAS, fire and forget missiles and advanced sensors like HMD, MmW radar, improved FCS as well as ECM systems, which the current AH-1F lacks. A Gunship which can control UAV's is also very valuable, the AH-64D and later versions have this capability.

The numbers can still be kept same around 50-65 Gunships, considering that older AH-1F/S are retired and with newer Gunships capabilities will increase many fold. I think the new Gunships are being acquired to retire older systems. The money can be spent to buy more MRAP's or advanced MBT's like Oplot as a stop gap.

No 100 + helicopters is in fact minimum requirement Janab. Not having them will kill us for sure. Yes we need MRAP and Tanks but still attack helicopters will be needed specially when our adversary will bring at least few hundred as they have both local and foreign to bring

 

[Signalian]

No 100 + helicopters is in fact minimum requirement Janab. Not having them will kill us for sure. Yes we need MRAP and Tanks but still attack helicopters will be needed specially when our adversary will bring at least few hundred as they have both local and foreign to bring

Can you justify the requirement instead of just saying that India has more helicopters in numbers or AD systems will be brought for war?

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well 100 Gunship , let me clearify not just Helicopters. There is a major difference between two from strategic usage on battle field.

Why is the 100 Gunships justified , well we got 4-5 provinces, lets take 4 figure , so by that account each province will be assigned 25 gunships

100 Gunships and we got 1 Million troops to support , you can clearly see what is the ratio difference

25 : 1,000,00

Realistically we need to protect the borders with Gunships , and also we need the Gunships for active protection of Military Assets and Troops

In ideal circumstances , we need to aim for 200-250 Gunships

• 50-80 for Border Patrol (Military Rangers)
• 100-150 designated for Military Establishment
• 50 for Navy/Airforce

Assumption here is we are dumping the older machines from 70's
Example

• Aérospatiale Alouette III
• Cobra

We have had this operational Gap since 1980's

 

[Zarvan]

Can you justify the requirement instead of just saying that India has more helicopters in numbers or AD systems will be brought for war?

Your Army alone is 660000 you have to face India with a Million Army do you really think having 60 attack helicopters will be enough. They won't be even close.

 

[Signalian]

Your Army alone is 660000 you have to face India with a Million Army do you really think having 60 attack helicopters will be enough. They won't be even close.

With your logic, you need 4000 MBT, 9000 artillery pieces, 6000 AD system and 8000 APC. When was the last time, PA had more troops in total than IA, there will always be a significant difference in numbers thats why strategy, tactics, training and experience is utilised.

In real world, in private sector even, resources are always scarce and you have to do the best with available resources. You just cant shut your senses and say that XYZ number is the requirement when you cant even justify it. Also PA goes diversity of weapons because one type of conventional weapon cannot help you win a war. In anti-tank role, its not just gunships, there are ATGM, UCAV's, MBT etc

Yes i think that 60 Gunships are good enough. Transport and cargo helicopters are never enough as the requirement for swift transport is very high, especially in northern areas as well as western border. Both areas have high casualty rate when compared to other parts of Pakistan. There is a major requirement of atleast 6-12 heavy lift helicopters, the biggest transport heli PA has is Mi-17 which is medium lift.

PA needs advanced artillery systems (towed more than SP, look at the inventory), MRAPs, UCAV's, advanced MBT's, medium alt/range mobile SAM's, at least an airborne/air assault brigade. PA armoured formations are smaller in number of MBT's than IA armoured formations. There are many other requirements that you know better than me as you want best of everything for PA. I can justify the numbers or equipment which i think PA needs but im waiting for your response else than general statements.

 

[Zarvan]

With your logic, you need 4000 MBT, 9000 artillery pieces, 6000 AD system and 8000 APC. When was the last time, PA had more troops in total than IA, there will always be a significant difference in numbers thats why strategy, tactics, training and experience is utilised.

In real world, in private sector even, resources are always scarce and you have to do the best with available resources. You just cant shut your senses and say that XYZ number is the requirement when you cant even justify it. Also PA goes diversity of weapons because one type of conventional weapon cannot help you win a war. In anti-tank role, its not just gunships, there are ATGM, UCAV's, MBT etc

Yes i think that 60 Gunships are good enough. Transport and cargo helicopters are never enough as the requirement for swift transport is very high, especially in northern areas as well as western border. Both areas have high casualty rate when compared to other parts of Pakistan. There is a major requirement of atleast 6-12 heavy lift helicopters, the biggest transport heli PA has is Mi-17 which is medium lift.

PA needs advanced artillery systems (towed more than SP, look at the inventory), MRAPs, UCAV's, advanced MBT's, medium alt/range mobile SAM's, at least an airborne/air assault brigade. PA armoured formations are smaller in number of MBT's than IA armoured formations. There are many other requirements that you know better than me as you want best of everything for PA. I can justify the numbers or equipment which i think PA needs but im waiting for your response else than general statements.

Yes our requirement is around 3000 Tanks even more and yes we need 120 Helicopters at least. We have to use them Siachin to Karachi with enemy which is much bigger and yes we need Tanks and and I am biggest supporter of MRAP and I am more angry than you on we not going for MRAP but still 120 Attack Helicopter is the minimum requirement which we have. 60 Attack are not even close to being good enough not even close.

 

[-------]

So is Pakistan Army gonna wait for few more years for ATAK-2???

ATAK-2 is being developed for expected naval requirements, the increased weight and same engine output would degrade the agility that T-129 is known for. IMO T-129 is better option for countering terrorism in high and hot conditions whilst ATAK-2 would be ideal for conventional warfare.

 

[Signalian]

Yes our requirement is around 3000 Tanks even more and yes we need 120 Helicopters at least. We have to use them Siachin to Karachi with enemy which is much bigger and yes we need Tanks and and I am biggest supporter of MRAP and I am more angry than you on we not going for MRAP but still 120 Attack Helicopter is the minimum requirement which we have. 60 Attack are not even close to being good enough not even close.

how did you make up the new requirement of 3000 tanks?

and the gunship numbers now increased to 120?

again, same question,any logical description for the numbers?

 

[Signalian]

Well 100 Gunship , let me clearify not just Helicopters. There is a major difference between two from strategic usage on battle field.

Why is the 100 Gunships justified , well we got 4-5 provinces, lets take 4 figure , so by that account each province will be assigned 25 gunships

Does PA assign troops according to provinces or according to threat level from enemy?

100 Gunships and we got 1 Million troops to support , you can clearly see what is the ratio difference

25 : 1,000,00

How is that ratio militarily viable? what kind of military planner uses that ratio to determine the number of gunships assigned to a Army formation?

Realistically we need to protect the borders with Gunships , and also we need the Gunships for active protection of Military Assets and Troops

Borders are protected with troops, weapons, barricades/obstacles, mines and monitoring systems. Gunship is one of many weapons used to protect border, not necessarily the only. Border has been protected without the Gunship for over 50 years.

In ideal circumstances , we need to aim for 200-250 Gunships

• 50-80 for Border Patrol (Military Rangers)

Can u calculate the cost of flying a helicopter everyday to patrol borders? and if you wont fly everyday then will u just keep it sitting in hangar?

Have you seen on TV that when an incident takes place in pakistan, you dont see more than 2 helicopters flying in air for monitoring situation. The whole cobra squadron doesn't show up in urban environment.

Flying near border has rules and regulations. Afghanistan doesnt have a strong AF. Indian Air Force is waiting for a chance to find a target. If you want a gunship to fly everyday on border with India, u will also need to put 2 F-16 in air for CAP to cover that gunship incase IAF scrambles its aircraft when they detect constant helicopter movement on border.

• 100-150 designated for Military Establishment

As if tackling Zarvan on the 100+ gunship debate not enough. what your reason for 150 for military estb?

• 50 for Navy/Airforce

AF uses helicopters for SAR and transport. It has fixed aircraft for attack.

Navy doesnt have a helicopter carrier. Frigates need transport and ASW helicopters.
The amphibious warfare is covered by marines, who firstly need transport helicopters and if they need ATGM gunships, they dont need more than 2 or 4 to cover the creek area.

Assumption here is we are dumping the older machines from 70's
Example

• Aérospatiale Alouette III
• Cobra

We have had this operational Gap since 1980's

We have had the AH-1 Cobra since 1980's and that has been a threat for IA armour. PA had the upper hand since 1980's because of AH-1. There has been no gap. India has been flying a variant of Alouette III called cheetak or cheetah.

 

[Sucha Kuggu]

Can u calculate the cost of flying a helicopter everyday to patrol borders? and if you wont fly everyday then will u just keep it sitting in hangar?

Is there any tech like IR senors or radars sensing human movement for our borders, It should be cheap to make/buy and run, 24/7 operational with no down time, less human dependence etc. above all it PREVENTION RATHER THAN CURE.

 

[Signalian]

Is there any tech like IR senors or radars sensing human movement for our borders, It should be cheap to make/buy and run, 24/7 operational with no down time, less human dependence etc. above all it PREVENTION RATHER THAN CURE.

PA infantry uses ground radars for movement detection.

 

[Sucha Kuggu]

PA infantry uses ground radars for movement detection.

good, obviously we have the "cure" but i said "prevention" so that we are not exposing our men to unnecessary dangers...

 

[niaz]

Outcome of a war is significantly dependent upon economy. I am not suggesting that a country with stronger economy will always win a war or that abundance of economic resources would uniquely determine the outcome on the battlefield. What I am saying that it is reasonable to assume that economic resources would decide the outcome on the battlefield when other things such as leadership, organization, and morale are equal on both sides.

In case of India/ Pakistan scenario; India will always enjoy numerical superiority. Only foolish & naïve will believe that skill level of average Pakistani soldier is far superior to that of the Indian soldier. Thru better planning, surprise and inspired leadership, Pakistan may gain initial success but to hold on to this gain, Pakistani economy must have the capacity to withstand long war of attrition.

Whereas the fact is that Pakistan is seriously short of money.

“The current account deficit widened by 148.5 per cent to an all-time high of $12.09 billion for 2016-17, the State Bank of Pakistan (SBP) reported on Wednesday. The balance on goods and services registered a deficit of $30.5bn compared to $22.7bn in 2015-16.

The growing current account deficit has practically neutralised the positive impact of about $19 bn remittances sent by overseas Pakistanis. For the first time in more than a decade, remittances declined on a year-on-year basis in 2016-17”

https://www.dawn.com/news/1346347


All future wars will be won by the country having superior technology and imported technology is extremely expensive. Therefore urgent measures are needed to raise standard of education at Pakistani schools and universities thus improving indigenous technology base. Additionally, we need to make all out efforts to strengthen our economy so that we can afford to pay for the technology that is beyond our indigenous capability.

In the meantime, we should be investing only on those weapons that would help us to acquire the minimum deterrent level which makes it too costly for India to start even a limited war. In other words we should try to avoid war with India until the time that our economy is sufficiently strong to withstand a war of attrition.

Hence there is no point in wishful thinking like having 30 divisions, 100 helo gunships, 4000 tanks, 3000 guns, 30 fighter squadrons, 10 destroyers, 10 frigates, aircraft carriers, nuclear subs etc. Ground reality is that we don’t have the money to buy all the hardware and after we have acquired it, we cannot afford to run such a large military establishment under the current state of the economy.

Pakistan is already spending more than 3% of her GDP on defence whereas India only spends 2.5%. Pakistan total budget is $47.5- billion. Defence expenditure at $$9.2-billion is about 20% of the total budget. Debt servicing alone is about $8-bilion. How one is going to find money for development, education & health, if we increase our defence spending even higher?

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

ATAK-2 is being developed for expected naval requirements, the increased weight and same engine output would degrade the agility that T-129 is known for. IMO T-129 is better option for countering terrorism in high and hot conditions whilst ATAK-2 would be ideal for conventional warfare.

We wont be using dedicated ACs for COIN... we have conventional usage against indians too.