Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[Arsalan]

Yes, we operate mant types of medium lift choppers.. MIs,Bells and AW139s... all represent the same category though.. medium class.

Which itself isnt a healthy thing for the military.. considering the logistics etc.

Sure .. they wont be going anywhere soon.. but a chopper program even if started today wont give fruit the next month or year either... it would still take years... unless we get a chopper under TOT... in which case we can go for Chinese MI clones.

So you suggest we just retire them and buy a new aircraft for the whole range? :O
Bahi ke ho gy jy!!

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

So you suggest we just retire them and buy a new aircraft for the whole range? :O
Bahi ke ho gy jy!!

Nope... instead of going for more imports.. we start relying on local helis?

Indias primary helicopter fleet was russian.. today they are relying on dhruv series... instead of buying more MIs... they are slowing replacing the olf MIs with Dhruvs.

That way, we wouldnt have to keep buying Z9s or MIs or Pumas..

And we have a large fleet..

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

I Second That

Nope... instead of going for more imports.. we start relying on local helis?

Indias primary helicopter fleet was russian.. today they are relying on dhruv series... instead of buying more MIs... they are slowing replacing the olf MIs with Dhruvs.

That way, we wouldnt have to keep buying Z9s or MIs or Pumas..

And we have a large fleet..

 

[Arsalan]

Nope... instead of going for more imports.. we start relying on local helis?

Indias primary helicopter fleet was russian.. today they are relying on dhruv series... instead of buying more MIs... they are slowing replacing the olf MIs with Dhruvs.

That way, we wouldnt have to keep buying Z9s or MIs or Pumas..

And we have a large fleet..

Nice of you to quote example of India
The problem or the point to note here is number of helicopters required.

Our requirment is of 180 200 systems max and will technical prefer two types for this. Getting a complete in house "Manufacturing" facility for 80 ofd choppers is

1. not feasible
2. not how we work

Our best approach to this can and should be to select the system, sign a deal where we can then

1. Upgrade and maintain them at home
2. Can make majority of frequently required spares at home
3. Get assembly setup of some sort
4. Get some parts made at home that we can export to the country of origin to be used in there other deals as well

This is both financially more feasible and also is reliable in troubled times so we can always keep yhem air worthy. Also generates some money.

 

[Khafee]

Nope... instead of going for more imports.. we start relying on local helis?

Indias primary helicopter fleet was russian.. today they are relying on dhruv series... instead of buying more MIs... they are slowing replacing the olf MIs with Dhruvs.

That way, we wouldnt have to keep buying Z9s or MIs or Pumas..

And we have a large fleet..

I said this a long time ago, that their procurement policy is short sighted.

Pakistan is lucky enough to have a strong engineering base, they need to develop it further.

Pakistani Armed Forces right now need three types of helos:

1) Gunships
2) Light lift
3) Medium Lift

The only way to get them in decent numbers is to build them at home, with tech collaboration from abroad.

They need to first identify what is the exact number required, for each type, for the next 10 ~ 15 years, then rope in a manufacturer who is willing to give ToT.

Each year if they were to induct 25 ~ 30 domestically built helos, you are looking at 250 ~ 300 helos in 10 years. It is not hard to find a manufacturer who will support this initiative, but the top military brass is dragging its feet. It should have happened a long time ago.

Nice of you to quote example of India
The problem or the point to note here is number of helicopters required.

Our requirment is of 180 200 systems max and will technical prefer two types for this. Getting a complete in house "Manufacturing" facility for 80 ofd choppers is

1. not feasible
2. not how we work

Our best approach to this can and should be to select the system, sign a deal where we can then

1. Upgrade and maintain them at home
2. Can make majority of frequently required spares at home
3. Get assembly setup of some sort
4. Get some parts made at home that we can export to the country of origin to be used in there other deals as well

This is both financially more feasible and also is reliable in troubled times so we can always keep yhem air worthy. Also generates some money.

180 ~ 200 only for Army, or all 3 services?

Secondly, "max" is a relative term, directly linked to your financial condition, and NOT operational requirement.

 

[war&peace]

I said this a long time ago, that their procurement policy is short sighted.

Pakistan is lucky enough to have a strong engineering base, they need to develop it further.

Pakistani Armed Forces right now need three types of helos:

1) Gunships
2) Light lift
3) Medium Lift

The only way to get them in decent numbers is to build them at home, with tech collaboration from abroad.

They need to first identify what is the exact number required, for each type, for the next 10 ~ 15 years, then rope in a manufacturer who is willing to give ToT.

Each year if they were to induct 25 ~ 30 domestically built helos, you are looking at 250 ~ 300 helos in 10 years. It is not hard to find a manufacturer who will support this initiative, but the top military brass is dragging its feet. It should have happened a long time ago.



180 ~ 200 only for Army, or all 3 services?

Secondly, "max" is a relative term, directly linked to your financial condition, and NOT operational requirement.

Helos may be the one of the most neglected weapons by our military top brass, all of the system acquisitions have been invariably marked by either corrupt practices and/or short-sight vision. Agosta-90b deal is one such major example. BB, Zardari and the leadership of Navy made huge sums and went for a 2nd tier system instead of Scorpene or Merlins. Furthermore, Agosta was acquired on ToT basis but where is all that ToT and the team as Pakistan is still importing subs from a foreign source. But we paid the price for that ToT and not just for the boats. ToT price is significantly more especially when the number of systems acquired is low. Who is responsible for that? and will he ever be made accountable and punished? and list goes on..

 

[Khafee]

they are fitted with guns and rocket pods.


z-10 took part in counter terrorism action.

check IAR 350 puma and eurocopter fennec as550 c3 details then comment.

Both versions in Pakistan Army are armed versions.

IAR350 Puma donated by UAE are transport helos, and do not carry any armament, unless operated by dedicated gunners, neither are they pod capable to date. This I can assure you.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I said this a long time ago, that their procurement policy is short sighted.

Pakistan is lucky enough to have a strong engineering base, they need to develop it further.

Pakistani Armed Forces right now need three types of helos:

1) Gunships
2) Light lift
3) Medium Lift

The only way to get them in decent numbers is to build them at home, with tech collaboration from abroad.

They need to first identify what is the exact number required, for each type, for the next 10 ~ 15 years, then rope in a manufacturer who is willing to give ToT.

Each year if they were to induct 25 ~ 30 domestically built helos, you are looking at 250 ~ 300 helos in 10 years. It is not hard to find a manufacturer who will support this initiative, but the top military brass is dragging its feet. It should have happened a long time ago.

The best approach is to partner with someone already engaged in the task and in need of someone to help take the load off in development cost and share scale. I think this is a major reason why we have the PAA, PAF and even PN approaching Turkey.

Turkey is (1) engaged in the task, (2) looking for scale and (3) looking for someone to share in the overhead cost, with (3) earning the partner rights to sub-assembly manufacturing and offsets.

China is lower-cost thanks to its domestic scale, but that comfort also gives China clout in basically denying economically valuable benefits, such as offsets and sub-assemblies sourcing. The JF-17/FC-1 is an exceptional program, you'll be hard-pressed to find many partnerships between Chinese firms and their customers.

Going it alone in Pakistan's situation (e.g. very limited fiscal means, corruption overhead, etc) is very difficult, especially for big-ticket items such as aircraft. The Project Azm 5th-gen fighter might be the first true wholly Pakistan-owned and funded big-ticket program (outside of the nuclear and strategic weapons programs).

In June, Alan Warnes said Pakistan will begin talks for 30 T129 ATAK. TAI also offered parts/sub-assemblies manufacturing to PAC with the T129. Earlier reports, including Aviation Week, had pegged final assembly as a possibility as well. After the initial 30, the PAA could look at committing to 5-6 T129 per year. In a span of 10 years that is a solid 50-60 helicopters. Unfortunately, the T129 is a standalone platform, it's unlikely we'd see its distant A109 cousin in Pakistan, so it is what it is.

On the other hand, the AW139 might have more potential. Inherently the AW139 is a good utility platform; it has widespread commercial, government and armed forces adoption, and the PT6 engine is common place. There is a MRO facility for the PT6 in the works at PAC too. IMO anyone operating an old Huey or Allouette in any state or government branch should be pushed to the AW139. Get widespread usage and push Leonardo to bring spare parts manufacturing, especially the dynamic parts, to Pakistan.

The next-phase could involve replacing the Puma, but with the AW149. The AW149 is basically a stretched AW139, but with two CT7 engines instead of the PT6. The PAA's AH-1Z use the T700, which is the military version of the CT7 (i.e. a civilian engine). So this is a top-step program: (1) bring CT7/T700 MRO to Pakistan (note: the CN-235 is also powered by the CT7) and (2) be a heavy partner in the AW149.

You can position the AW149 as a multi-role military helicopter for the PAA, PN and PAF and build scale around it, e.g. 100 helicopters. It won't be enough to pay for complete ToT, but we as the single largest user of the AW149, we can push Leonardo to share a hefty portion of the sub-assembly and dynamic parts manufacturing with PAC. Not just for the AW149 but its civilian version - AW189 - too. In parallel with domestic use, PAC and Leonardo can jointly and market the AW149 and AW189, try to make up for the ToT cost via third-party exports and support.

If not AW149 then consider co-funding TAI's possible 10-12-ton utility helicopter, assuming TAI actually goes ahead with that project (the Turks seem content with the T-70 Black Hawk).

 

[Khafee]

The best approach is to partner with someone already engaged in the task and in need of someone to help take the load off in development cost and share scale. I think this is a major reason why we have the PAA, PAF and even PN approaching Turkey.

Turkey is (1) engaged in the task, (2) looking for scale and (3) looking for someone to share in the overhead cost, with (3) earning the partner rights to sub-assembly manufacturing and offsets.

China is lower-cost thanks to its domestic scale, but that comfort also gives China clout in basically denying economically valuable benefits, such as offsets and sub-assemblies sourcing. The JF-17/FC-1 is an exceptional program, you'll be hard-pressed to find many partnerships between Chinese firms and their customers.

Going it alone in Pakistan's situation (e.g. very limited fiscal means, corruption overhead, etc) is very difficult, especially for big-ticket items such as aircraft. The Project Azm 5th-gen fighter might be the first true wholly Pakistan-owned and funded big-ticket program (outside of the nuclear and strategic weapons programs).

In June, Alan Warnes said Pakistan will begin talks for 30 T129 ATAK. TAI also offered parts/sub-assemblies manufacturing to PAC with the T129. Earlier reports, including Aviation Week, had pegged final assembly as a possibility as well. After the initial 30, the PAA could look at committing to 5-6 T129 per year. In a span of 10 years that is a solid 50-60 helicopters. Unfortunately, the T129 is a standalone platform, it's unlikely we'd see its distant A109 cousin in Pakistan, so it is what it is.

On the other hand, the AW139 might have more potential. Inherently the AW139 is a good utility platform; it has widespread commercial, government and armed forces adoption, and the PT6 engine is common place. There is a MRO facility for the PT6 in the works at PAC too. IMO anyone operating an old Huey or Allouette in any state or government branch should be pushed to the AW139. Get widespread usage and push Leonardo to bring spare parts manufacturing, especially the dynamic parts, to Pakistan.

The next-phase could involve replacing the Puma, but with the AW149. The AW149 is basically a stretched AW139, but with two CT7 engines instead of the PT6. The PAA's AH-1Z use the T700, which is the military version of the CT7 (i.e. a civilian engine). So this is a top-step program: (1) bring CT7/T700 MRO to Pakistan (note: the CN-235 is also powered by the CT7) and (2) be a heavy partner in the AW149.

You can position the AW149 as a multi-role military helicopter for the PAA, PN and PAF and build scale around it, e.g. 100 helicopters. It won't be enough to pay for complete ToT, but we as the single largest user of the AW149, we can push Leonardo to share a hefty portion of the sub-assembly and dynamic parts manufacturing with PAC. Not just for the AW149 but its civilian version - AW189 - too. In parallel with domestic use, PAC and Leonardo can jointly and market the AW149 and AW189, try to make up for the ToT cost via third-party exports and support.

If not AW149 then consider co-funding TAI's possible 10-12-ton utility helicopter, assuming TAI actually goes ahead with that project (the Turks seem content with the T-70 Black Hawk).

You have outlined three possible partners, all three have issues, primarily:

Turkey - Engine Tech is still in its infancy, plus the limited range of helos

China- Quality and tech is still an issue, but is improving, and is sanction free

Italy - Cost is an issue, and tech transfer could be an issue as well. Pakistanis are not going to be trusted by Europeans so easily, they are still breaking their heads, at the fact that PAF is still flying Mirage 3's.

Now out of these three, which all make sense, one has to be selected and implemented, but the top brass has to put in the same impetus, as the Jordanian Viper deal.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Many defence planners must have such knowledge as you. But they sometimes are suppressed by the corrupt elements.

The best approach is to partner with someone already engaged in the task and in need of someone to help take the load off in development cost and share scale. I think this is a major reason why we have the PAA, PAF and even PN approaching Turkey.

Turkey is (1) engaged in the task, (2) looking for scale and (3) looking for someone to share in the overhead cost, with (3) earning the partner rights to sub-assembly manufacturing and offsets.

China is lower-cost thanks to its domestic scale, but that comfort also gives China clout in basically denying economically valuable benefits, such as offsets and sub-assemblies sourcing. The JF-17/FC-1 is an exceptional program, you'll be hard-pressed to find many partnerships between Chinese firms and their customers.

Going it alone in Pakistan's situation (e.g. very limited fiscal means, corruption overhead, etc) is very difficult, especially for big-ticket items such as aircraft. The Project Azm 5th-gen fighter might be the first true wholly Pakistan-owned and funded big-ticket program (outside of the nuclear and strategic weapons programs).

In June, Alan Warnes said Pakistan will begin talks for 30 T129 ATAK. TAI also offered parts/sub-assemblies manufacturing to PAC with the T129. Earlier reports, including Aviation Week, had pegged final assembly as a possibility as well. After the initial 30, the PAA could look at committing to 5-6 T129 per year. In a span of 10 years that is a solid 50-60 helicopters. Unfortunately, the T129 is a standalone platform, it's unlikely we'd see its distant A109 cousin in Pakistan, so it is what it is.

On the other hand, the AW139 might have more potential. Inherently the AW139 is a good utility platform; it has widespread commercial, government and armed forces adoption, and the PT6 engine is common place. There is a MRO facility for the PT6 in the works at PAC too. IMO anyone operating an old Huey or Allouette in any state or government branch should be pushed to the AW139. Get widespread usage and push Leonardo to bring spare parts manufacturing, especially the dynamic parts, to Pakistan.

The next-phase could involve replacing the Puma, but with the AW149. The AW149 is basically a stretched AW139, but with two CT7 engines instead of the PT6. The PAA's AH-1Z use the T700, which is the military version of the CT7 (i.e. a civilian engine). So this is a top-step program: (1) bring CT7/T700 MRO to Pakistan (note: the CN-235 is also powered by the CT7) and (2) be a heavy partner in the AW149.

You can position the AW149 as a multi-role military helicopter for the PAA, PN and PAF and build scale around it, e.g. 100 helicopters. It won't be enough to pay for complete ToT, but we as the single largest user of the AW149, we can push Leonardo to share a hefty portion of the sub-assembly and dynamic parts manufacturing with PAC. Not just for the AW149 but its civilian version - AW189 - too. In parallel with domestic use, PAC and Leonardo can jointly and market the AW149 and AW189, try to make up for the ToT cost via third-party exports and support.

If not AW149 then consider co-funding TAI's possible 10-12-ton utility helicopter, assuming TAI actually goes ahead with that project (the Turks seem content with the T-70 Black Hawk).

 

[war&peace]

The best approach is to partner with someone already engaged in the task and in need of someone to help take the load off in development cost and share scale. I think this is a major reason why we have the PAA, PAF and even PN approaching Turkey.

Turkey is (1) engaged in the task, (2) looking for scale and (3) looking for someone to share in the overhead cost, with (3) earning the partner rights to sub-assembly manufacturing and offsets.

China is lower-cost thanks to its domestic scale, but that comfort also gives China clout in basically denying economically valuable benefits, such as offsets and sub-assemblies sourcing. The JF-17/FC-1 is an exceptional program, you'll be hard-pressed to find many partnerships between Chinese firms and their customers.

Going it alone in Pakistan's situation (e.g. very limited fiscal means, corruption overhead, etc) is very difficult, especially for big-ticket items such as aircraft. The Project Azm 5th-gen fighter might be the first true wholly Pakistan-owned and funded big-ticket program (outside of the nuclear and strategic weapons programs).

In June, Alan Warnes said Pakistan will begin talks for 30 T129 ATAK. TAI also offered parts/sub-assemblies manufacturing to PAC with the T129. Earlier reports, including Aviation Week, had pegged final assembly as a possibility as well. After the initial 30, the PAA could look at committing to 5-6 T129 per year. In a span of 10 years that is a solid 50-60 helicopters. Unfortunately, the T129 is a standalone platform, it's unlikely we'd see its distant A109 cousin in Pakistan, so it is what it is.

On the other hand, the AW139 might have more potential. Inherently the AW139 is a good utility platform; it has widespread commercial, government and armed forces adoption, and the PT6 engine is common place. There is a MRO facility for the PT6 in the works at PAC too. IMO anyone operating an old Huey or Allouette in any state or government branch should be pushed to the AW139. Get widespread usage and push Leonardo to bring spare parts manufacturing, especially the dynamic parts, to Pakistan.

The next-phase could involve replacing the Puma, but with the AW149. The AW149 is basically a stretched AW139, but with two CT7 engines instead of the PT6. The PAA's AH-1Z use the T700, which is the military version of the CT7 (i.e. a civilian engine). So this is a top-step program: (1) bring CT7/T700 MRO to Pakistan (note: the CN-235 is also powered by the CT7) and (2) be a heavy partner in the AW149.

You can position the AW149 as a multi-role military helicopter for the PAA, PN and PAF and build scale around it, e.g. 100 helicopters. It won't be enough to pay for complete ToT, but we as the single largest user of the AW149, we can push Leonardo to share a hefty portion of the sub-assembly and dynamic parts manufacturing with PAC. Not just for the AW149 but its civilian version - AW189 - too. In parallel with domestic use, PAC and Leonardo can jointly and market the AW149 and AW189, try to make up for the ToT cost via third-party exports and support.

If not AW149 then consider co-funding TAI's possible 10-12-ton utility helicopter, assuming TAI actually goes ahead with that project (the Turks seem content with the T-70 Black Hawk).

Excellent suggestion as usual.
I also have a little suggestion that Pakistan should initiate the project itself based on its particular needs and then try to do JVs, ToTs and off the shelf purchase for various systems and the components. Both China and Turkey are lagging behind the west in the engine technology so engine should be acquired either from the West or Russia and rest of the components and subsystems can also be JVed or acquired and with each iteration, a few components get deleted from the acquisition list i.e. produced locally. That will give Pakistan both the flexibility, technology and a product at reasonable price.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

You have outlined three possible partners, all three have issues, primarily:

Turkey - Engine Tech is still in its infancy, plus the limited range of helos

China- Quality and tech is still an issue, but is improving, and is sanction free

Italy - Cost is an issue, and tech transfer could be an issue as well. Pakistanis are not going to be trusted by Europeans so easily, they are still breaking their heads, at the fact that PAF is still flying Mirage 3's.

Now out of these three, which all make sense, one has to be selected and implemented, but the top brass has to put in the same impetus, as the Jordanian Viper deal.

tbh I don't think there's much of a gap between Leonardo's rotor and airframe tech than that of AVIC. I say this because AVIC itself is partners with Airbus Helicopters and Safran Group in several pretty key projects, including turboshaft engines (e.g. Ardiden 3). Cost will probably be the biggest determining factor, but AW149 itself was designed to control that by being based on the AW139, itself an affordable and vastly used (hence, scaled) helicopter.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Some of the lesser developed nations are going to become major consumers in defence sector. Pakistan should try to find a niche and exploit it and try to become a VENDOR foreign orders would very likely stimulate innovation. And all of this should be run parallel to local defence needs.

And as is the case with most things in Pakistan. Education is the most fundamental need to achieve these goals. In unison with cultural rejuvination and inculcation of patriotism. (Bollywood is exported to Pakistan for a reason)

tbh I don't think there's much of a gap between Leonardo's rotor and airframe tech than that of AVIC. I say this because AVIC itself is partners with Airbus Helicopters and Safran Group in several pretty key projects, including turboshaft engines (e.g. Ardiden 3). Cost will probably be the biggest determining factor, but AW149 itself was designed to control that by being based on the AW139, itself an affordable and vastly used (hence, scaled) helicopter.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Some of the lesser developed nations are going to become major consumers in defence sector. Pakistan should try to find a niche and exploit it and try to become a VENDOR foreign orders would very likely stimulate innovation. And all of this should be run parallel to local defence needs.

And as is the case with most things in Pakistan. Education is the most fundamental need to achieve these goals. In unison with cultural rejuvination and inculcation of patriotism. (Bollywood is exported to Pakistan for a reason)

Passion warms blood in the veins, but you actually need people to hustle to get work done.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

True Bro.
But I dnt knw if u have grown up in Pakistan or overseas. But when I was growing up in Pakistan none of my peers really cared about Pakistan or more specifically the CONCEPT of Pakistan. Or their traditions, values or their religion. All they cared about was "bachian", fast food, and ending up at a good job (mostly spurred on by their parents in this area). So u see these are very grass roots level stuff that shapes ur general who is in charge of a procurement program or a diplomat who is to negotiate a deal for defence hardware on behalf of Pakistan or the maybe the defence minister himself. Thus, I could go far as to assert that it shapes a nation. If our youth which, forms a whopping bulk of our population in Pakistan and is our future does not care. Then, how do we make progress without having necessary grass root stuff nailed down?

Passion warms blood in the veins, but you actually need people to hustle to get work done.