Pakistan Army's 6th Armor Division in Tonight with Fareeha ; A must watch!

[Ghazwa e Hind]

This program is a gift for the lovers of armor warfare. Specially broadcasted by Abb Takk News on this defense day.

 

[Signalian]

6th Armoured officially didnt even exist in 1965 war but the role its units played stopped two indian divisions (armoured and infantry) at Chawinda.

 

[Baloch Pakistani]

That's sad that now these machines will be terrorized by ATGM teams in the battlefield. Russian anti atgm Shtora system totally failed in syria bcz it has to be pointed in the direction of incoming atgm, and it overheats with in 15 minutes of use.

 

[Mrc]

That's sad that now these machines will be terrorized by ATGM teams in the battlefield. Russian anti atgm Shtora system totally failed in syria bcz it has to be pointed in the direction of incoming atgm, and it overheats with in 15 minutes of use.

Active protections systems should be adopted

 

[Baloch Pakistani]

Active protections systems should be adopted

Shtora is considered one of the best ACTIVE protection system on the market. But it failed, totally failed. Yesterday 2 trukish tanks were cooked off by isis ATGMs. ATGM is the king now, not the tank.

 

[Mrc]

Shtora is considered one of the best ACTIVE protection system on the market. But it failed, totally failed. Yesterday 2 trukish tanks were cooked off by isis ATGMs. ATGM is the king now, not the tank.

Sory i meant hard kill system like israeli trophy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trophy_(countermeasure)

Although even that would be vulnerable to top attack missiles...

I would like to see pakistan put aneffort on a similar ststem

 

[Mrc]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-30

simple counter measure against trophy

 

[Signalian]

There are strategies devised in the battlefield to counter enemy ATGM's. Indian has a big arsenal of excellent modern ATGM's like Milan, Spike, Kornet-E etc, then there are local ones like Nag.

A few tactics that battle commanders employ to avoid, engage or destroy enemy ATGM teams are:

1. Use of Infantry ahead of tanks.

This helps to identify and destroy the ATGM positions by dismounted infantry while keeping tanks out of range till all ATGM operators are killed.

2. Use of terrain as cover while flanking the ATGM operator/ Gunner

The tank can use terrain as concealment and attack the ATGM operator or Gunner from flanks. The tank exposes itself for a few seconds, fires and kills the ATGM team and again moves into concealment of terrain before another ATGM team can target the tank. For this purpose:

1. The main gun of tank must be traversed in direction of the ATGM team.
2. The round should be loaded
3. Tank Gunner will only have a few seconds to check Gunner sights, correct error of Gun traverse by a few degrees to lock onto ATGM team and fire. Commander can assist with his sigts.
4. Driver ready to quickly move tank on commander order as soon as the round hits the target.


3. Designate a Tank as Spotter to engage ATGM team

In case infantry is not present, a tank troop (4 tanks) or a tank squadron (12-15 tanks) comes across an enemy ATGM team, its best to designate 1 tank (in troops) or 2-3 tanks (in squadron) as spotters to spot and engage ATGM team on revelation when ATGM is fired.

When 106mm RR guns were used, each round fired by RR used to create a dust cloud which automatically revealed position of RR gun.


4. Correct Choice of weapon to take out ATGM team

The above table shows which weapon to use at what distance to engage and destroy ATGM teams. Dismounted Infantry can use Mortars or bazookas as well as call artillery support to take out enemy ATGM teams, if ATGM team is more than 2000 meters away.

Pakistan Army used 155mm SP M-109 guns and 8 inch SP M-110 guns in its armoured forces. Artillery also fires smoke rounds to give a smoke screen for concealment of advance by infantry or tanks towards enemy positions. Tanks can also fire smoke grenades to retreat to a safe place for concealment.

The main problem that PA faces is BMP-2 because every BMP-2 carries minimum 6-8 rounds of ATGM, therefore increasing ATGM firepower delivery. destruction of IA BMP-2 should be the first aim of PA tanks and infantry.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

There are strategies devised in the battlefield to counter enemy ATGM's. Indian has a big arsenal of excellent modern ATGM's like Milan, Spike, Kornet-E etc, then there are local ones like Nag.

A few tactics that battle commanders employ to avoid, engage or destroy enemy ATGM teams are:

1. Use of Infantry ahead of tanks.


View attachment 332262

This helps to identify and destroy the ATGM positions by dismounted infantry while keeping tanks out of range till all ATGM operators are killed.

2. Use of terrain as cover while flanking the ATGM operator/ Gunner

View attachment 332263

The tank can use terrain as concealment and attack the ATGM operator or Gunner from flanks. The tank exposes itself for a few seconds, fires and kills the ATGM team and again moves into concealment of terrain before another ATGM team can target the tank. For this purpose:

1. The main gun of tank must be traversed in direction of the ATGM team.
2. The round should be loaded
3. Tank Gunner will only have a few seconds to check Gunner sights, correct error of Gun traverse by a few degrees to lock onto ATGM team and fire. Commander can assist with his sigts.
4. Driver ready to quickly move tank on commander order as soon as the round hits the target.


3. Designate a Tank as Spotter to engage ATGM team

View attachment 332264

In case infantry is not present, a tank troop (4 tanks) or a tank squadron (12-15 tanks) comes across an enemy ATGM team, its best to designate 1 tank (in troops) or 2-3 tanks (in squadron) as spotters to spot and engage ATGM team on revelation when ATGM is fired.

When 106mm RR guns were used, each round fired by RR used to create a dust cloud which automatically revealed position of RR gun.


4. Correct Choice of weapon to take out ATGM team

View attachment 332265

The above table shows which weapon to use at what distance to engage and destroy ATGM teams. Dismounted Infantry can use Mortars or bazookas as well as call artillery support to take out enemy ATGM teams, if ATGM team is more than 2000 meters away.

Pakistan Army used 155mm SP M-109 guns and 8 inch SP M-110 guns in its armoured forces. Artillery also fires smoke rounds to give a smoke screen for concealment of advance by infantry or tanks towards enemy positions. Tanks can also fire smoke grenades to retreat to a safe place for concealment.

The main problem that PA faces is BMP-2 because every BMP-2 carries minimum 6-8 rounds of ATGM, therefore increasing ATGM firepower delivery. destruction of IA BMP-2 should be the first aim of PA tanks and infantry.

Hey Sarge it's pleasure reading your posts. Thanks. Most informative. However placing infantry ahead on foot - does it not rather undo the whole concept of armoured warfare? Speed and mobility?

 

[Signalian]

Hey Sarge it's pleasure reading your posts. Thanks. Most informative. However placing infantry ahead on foot - does it not rather undo the whole concept of armoured warfare? Speed and mobility?

Infantry doesnt walk along with tanks , infantry sits in M-113 APCs.

Each APC can have 9-11 troops.
Speed and mobility is given through M-113 APC as seen in the pictures in previous post and the following video.
M-113 moves along with Tanks up to battlefield. Reaching close to enemy positions, the infantry dismounts and assaults the enemy positions.

watch video from 4:00 onwards

 

[Thorough Pro]

what about using the artillery before sending in the armour or infantry?

There are strategies devised in the battlefield to counter enemy ATGM's. Indian has a big arsenal of excellent modern ATGM's like Milan, Spike, Kornet-E etc, then there are local ones like Nag.

A few tactics that battle commanders employ to avoid, engage or destroy enemy ATGM teams are:

1. Use of Infantry ahead of tanks.


View attachment 332262

This helps to identify and destroy the ATGM positions by dismounted infantry while keeping tanks out of range till all ATGM operators are killed.

2. Use of terrain as cover while flanking the ATGM operator/ Gunner

View attachment 332263

The tank can use terrain as concealment and attack the ATGM operator or Gunner from flanks. The tank exposes itself for a few seconds, fires and kills the ATGM team and again moves into concealment of terrain before another ATGM team can target the tank. For this purpose:

1. The main gun of tank must be traversed in direction of the ATGM team.
2. The round should be loaded
3. Tank Gunner will only have a few seconds to check Gunner sights, correct error of Gun traverse by a few degrees to lock onto ATGM team and fire. Commander can assist with his sigts.
4. Driver ready to quickly move tank on commander order as soon as the round hits the target.


3. Designate a Tank as Spotter to engage ATGM team

View attachment 332264

In case infantry is not present, a tank troop (4 tanks) or a tank squadron (12-15 tanks) comes across an enemy ATGM team, its best to designate 1 tank (in troops) or 2-3 tanks (in squadron) as spotters to spot and engage ATGM team on revelation when ATGM is fired.

When 106mm RR guns were used, each round fired by RR used to create a dust cloud which automatically revealed position of RR gun.


4. Correct Choice of weapon to take out ATGM team

View attachment 332265

The above table shows which weapon to use at what distance to engage and destroy ATGM teams. Dismounted Infantry can use Mortars or bazookas as well as call artillery support to take out enemy ATGM teams, if ATGM team is more than 2000 meters away.

Pakistan Army used 155mm SP M-109 guns and 8 inch SP M-110 guns in its armoured forces. Artillery also fires smoke rounds to give a smoke screen for concealment of advance by infantry or tanks towards enemy positions. Tanks can also fire smoke grenades to retreat to a safe place for concealment.

The main problem that PA faces is BMP-2 because every BMP-2 carries minimum 6-8 rounds of ATGM, therefore increasing ATGM firepower delivery. destruction of IA BMP-2 should be the first aim of PA tanks and infantry.

 

[Signalian]

what about using the artillery before sending in the armour or infantry?

Artillery bombardment is a must before an attack. It can be based on any of two factors:

1. Time...like a 15 min bombardment on enemy position and then the attack starts.
2. Number of rounds....40 rounds fired by artillery and then attack starts.

A forward artillery observer (officer rank) and his team are attached with infantry or armour forces. he coordinates artillery strikes on enemy positions before an assault.

The artillery bombardment forces enemy to lay stay down in bunkers and damages some positions while the assault force gets ready and comes close with weapons within range of enemy positions. so as soon as the artillery bombardment stops, infantry or armour starts assault with guns blazing from the word GO.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Thanks for the reply, I should have elaborated further. The point I was trying to make was in reference to your stated techniques/tactics to avoid enemy ATGM's. So rather than sending the APC's or infantry why not use concentrated heavy artillery shelling from a safe distance to really break the moral and back bone of enemy strike element and or their defensive (SAM and ATGM) units before sending our own armoured and infantry units to reduce the losses and make it easier for them to clean up the leftover. I know it's a big subject with many variables, counters and counter-counters that all can't be discussed.

Artillery bombardment is a must before an attack. It can be based on any of two factors:

1. Time...like a 15 min bombardment on enemy position and then the attack starts.
2. Number of rounds....40 rounds fired by artillery and then attack starts.

A forward artillery observer (officer rank) and his team are attached with infantry or armour forces. he coordinates artillery strikes on enemy positions before an assault.

The artillery bombardment forces enemy to lay stay down in bunkers and damages some positions while the assault force gets ready and comes close with weapons within range of enemy positions. so as soon as the artillery bombardment stops, infantry or armour starts assault with guns blazing from the word GO.

 

[Signalian]

Thanks for the reply, I should have elaborated further. The point I was trying to make was in reference to your stated techniques/tactics to avoid enemy ATGM's. So rather than sending the APC's or infantry why not use concentrated heavy artillery shelling from a safe distance to really break the moral and back bone of enemy strike element and or their defensive (SAM and ATGM) units before sending our own armoured and infantry units to reduce the losses and make it easier for them to clean up the leftover. I know it's a big subject with many variables, counters and counter-counters that all can't be discussed.

Pakistan Army has 2 artillery Divisions (21 artillery Div and 22 artillery Div) for concentrated fire on enemy positions. A rough guess would be minimum 108 guns for each division. If 100-150 guns are firing at a single enemy position you can imagine the amount of destruction to the area and to the morale as well as shell shock victims in that area.

Destruction. Destruction puts a target out of action permanently. Direct hits with high-explosive (HE) or concrete-piercing (CP) shells are required to destroy hard materiel targets. Usually, destruction requires large expenditures of ammunition and is not considered economical, except for nuclear weapons.

Neutralization. Neutralization knocks a target out of action temporarily. It can be achieved by use of any type of shell-fuze combination suitable for attacking a particular type of target. Neutralization does not require an extensive expenditure of ammunition and is the most practical type of mission. Most missions are neutralization fire.

Suppression. Suppression of a target limits the ability of the enemy Personnel in the target area to perform their jobs. Firing HE/VT or smoke creates apprehension and confuses the enemy. The effect of suppressive fires usually lasts only as long as the fires are continued. Suppression requires a low expenditure of ammunition; however, since its effects are not lasting, it is unsuitable for most targets.

Artillery can take out enemy ATGM positions as posted already showing 105mm, 155mm and 203mm (8 inch) rate of fire and distance. But to snipe out/take out such teams , a forward observer using observed fire is required, therefore either a recon team in light vehicles is required to go ahead keeping a safe distance from enemy and fire is directed on enemy. A recon UAV or helicopter can be used for this purpose also. But until all enemy ATGM teams are destroyed the recon element has to stay in area and direct fire. After the threat is neutralised then own infantry or armour can move in.
Like you said many factors involved, so there is no one single tactic or strategy involved.

Use of MLRS is also common now and if used against fortified enemy infantry positions, it can wreak havoc.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Not based on any calculations but I thing artillery is the most cost effective (acquisition, maintenance, training, operation, ammo, etc.) in terms of destruction/$ basis, engages the enemy from a safe distance and delivers total destruction. Add to that fire location radar, effective air defence and CAS, and any cold start can be evaporated in to steam.

Pakistan Army has 2 artillery Divisions (21 artillery Div and 22 artillery Div) for concentrated fire on enemy positions. A rough guess would be minimum 108 guns for each division. If 100-150 guns are firing at a single enemy position you can imagine the amount of destruction to the area and to the morale as well as shell shock victims in that area.

Destruction. Destruction puts a target out of action permanently. Direct hits with high-explosive (HE) or concrete-piercing (CP) shells are required to destroy hard materiel targets. Usually, destruction requires large expenditures of ammunition and is not considered economical, except for nuclear weapons.

Neutralization. Neutralization knocks a target out of action temporarily. It can be achieved by use of any type of shell-fuze combination suitable for attacking a particular type of target. Neutralization does not require an extensive expenditure of ammunition and is the most practical type of mission. Most missions are neutralization fire.

Suppression. Suppression of a target limits the ability of the enemy Personnel in the target area to perform their jobs. Firing HE/VT or smoke creates apprehension and confuses the enemy. The effect of suppressive fires usually lasts only as long as the fires are continued. Suppression requires a low expenditure of ammunition; however, since its effects are not lasting, it is unsuitable for most targets.

Artillery can take out enemy ATGM positions as posted already showing 105mm, 155mm and 203mm (8 inch) rate of fire and distance. But to snipe out/take out such teams , a forward observer using observed fire is required, therefore either a recon team in light vehicles is required to go ahead keeping a safe distance from enemy and fire is directed on enemy. A recon UAV or helicopter can be used for this purpose also. But until all enemy ATGM teams are destroyed the recon element has to stay in area and direct fire. After the threat is neutralised then own infantry or armour can move in.
Like you said many factors involved, so there is no one single tactic or strategy involved.

Use of MLRS is also common now and if used against fortified enemy infantry positions, it can wreak havoc.