Pakistan Army's 6th Armor Division in Tonight with Fareeha ; A must watch!

[X-2.]

ATGM is like any other system, it needs good conditions to be at its best, and that is something you need to consider when finding and choosing your BP’s (Battle Position).

• Clear fields of fire
  
• Flanking fire
  
• Defendable ranges (don’t be at a 5 km open field when you only reach 2km…)
  
• Air cover
  
• Frontal cover
  
• Field works (foxholes for yourself, obstacles for the enemy to slow them down/force them in your direction etc)
  
• Free regroup roads (be sure to be able to get out of trubble as quick as you got in them)
  
• Avoid forest edges

As we all know finding a position that matches all of above is just not happening but we at least need to TRY to find as good position from above as possible to make us live longer on the battlefield.

When it comes to ATGM there are two of above that is especially important:

Clear fields of fire & defendable ranges.

Clear fields of fire: trees in front of you, even few small ones are a big trouble. You might have a clear shot when you fire of the ATGM but as you are tracking the target the missile is changing patch and might hit a tree instead of the target – bad day for you.

The importance of clear fields of fire will show itself when we come to working on our range card.

Defendable ranges: ATGM system have a longest range and a shortest range. ATGM systems are not good at close combat, some systems need around 400m before they are activated and working properly and on close ranges the tanks discover you faster. If a system have 2km max range a good combat range is 1000-2000m, - Not to close but not to far.

Also you do not want to sit on a 5km open field when you only can reach 2km, this will increase the risk of you getting discovered before you can engage the enemy and you also risk getting tempted to fire of missiles on targets that are outside your max range, in other words loose the missile to self-destruction.

 

[Signalian]

Recce or recon or reconnaissance is another important topic through which intel is gathered about enemy locations and weapon positions and then battle plans are made.

In armoured formations, Armoured Recce Regiments perform this task or atleast performed in past. Recce Units was further divided into recce troops,
e,g pre 1990's, a recce troop would be a large sub unit having 14 Jeeps.

2 X jeeps for Troop HQ
6 X Jeeps with RR 106mm Gun
6 X Jeeps with 12.7mm HMG

RR would have been replaced with ATGM now. and CJ3/5/7 by Defeneder jeeps.

Also Armoured Recce Regiments used to have Light tanks like M-24 Chaffee tanks. These tanks have been retired long ago.

There is also a very important part of gathering intel through Patrols/patrolling. Two type of Patrols are common in Pakistan Army, although there are few other types too.

Recce Patrol and Fighting Patrol(Combat patrol).

Recce Patrol is a patrol, usually small whose main mission is the gathering of information. They tend to tend to avoid contact.

Fighting Patrol(Combat patrol) tends to raid or ambush enemy(usually to get POW's for information/intel).

 

[Sine Nomine]

@Sarge @third eye what about armoured attacking under blades of attack helos and wing converge of friendly fighters against enemy air attack,this coupled with UAV's is going to be Indo-Pak scenario in future.

Recce or recon or reconnaissance is another important topic through which intel is gathered about enemy locations and weapon positions and then battle plans are made.

In armoured formations, Armoured Recce Regiments perform this task or atleast performed in past. Recce Units was further divided into recce troops,
e,g pre 1990's, a recce troop would be a large sub unit having 14 Jeeps.

2 X jeeps for Troop HQ
6 X Jeeps with RR 106mm Gun
6 X Jeeps with 12.7mm HMG

RR would have been replaced with ATGM now. and CJ3/5/7 by Defeneder jeeps.

Also Armoured Recce Regiments used to have Light tanks like M-24 Chaffee tanks. These tanks have been retired long ago.

There is also a very important part of gathering intel through Patrols/patrolling. Two type of Patrols are common in Pakistan Army, although there are few other types too.

Recce Patrol and Fighting Patrol(Combat patrol).

Recce Patrol is a patrol, usually small whose main mission is the gathering of information. They tend to tend to avoid contact.

Fighting Patrol(Combat patrol) tends to raid or ambush enemy(usually to get POW's for information/intel).

Induction of UAV squad at corps level will help a lot in reconnaissance and identification of targets for artillery bombardment it will also create better awareness,I bet on scan eagle which is in PN,your thoughts.

 

[Signalian]

@Sarge @third eye what about armoured attacking under blades of attack helos and wing converge of friendly fighters against enemy air attack,this coupled with UAV's is going to be Indo-Pak scenario in future.

AH-1 Cobras were acquired to stop a Corps sized armoured thrust of IA. The main preference of AH-1 over forming another armoured division in 1980's are following:

1. Ability to switch from one sector of war to another threatened sector quickly being Air mobile.
2. Ability to engage IA armour over vast desert terrains in the Bahawalpur/Rahim Yar Khan/ Sindh desert. (mobility in desert not an issue)
3. A 4-ship formation of Cobras carrying 8 TOW's each, can easily destroy/disable 20-30 tanks thus stalling an armoured advance in one attack.

I doubt that PA will send AH-1 cobras across the border(in indian territory with Pakistani ground forces) as they will need a support structure (fuel/ammo/maintenance/spares etc) and that would require moving another minimum 50-100 troops. This support structure needs to be near the main fighting lines so support to own troops can come within minutes from AH-1 Cobras. In exercises, the maintenance crew for AH-1 cobras goes ahead with them, but across the border, its a 50/50.
If the AH-1 has to fly back to Pakistani territory for replenishment or maintenance, it would again become costly (fuel) and time consuming. My guess is that AH-1 will be kept for defensive purposes to switch them to threatened sectors quickly.

As far as fighter cover for Pakistani forces in Indian territory is concerned, it may or may not be present so Pakistani ground forces will operate own AD systems to counter IAF bombings.

Induction of UAV squad at corps level will help a lot in reconnaissance and identification of targets for artillery bombardment it will also create better awareness,I bet on scan eagle which is in PN,your thoughts.

I agree, however not only a UAV but a UCAV squadron of 12-16 UCAV for armed recon and armour interdiction missions against IA tanks . Burraq armed with BARQ laser guided missile can do the job.

Pakistan Army has roughly 27 types of UAV's at its disposal to select for performing recon missions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unmanned_aerial_vehicles#Pakistan

 

[Sine Nomine]

I doubt that PA will send AH-1 cobras across the border(in indian territory with Pakistani ground forces) as they will need a support structure (fuel/ammo/maintenance/spares etc) and that would require moving another minimum 50-100 troops. This support structure needs to be near the main fighting lines so support to own troops can come within minutes from AH-1 Cobras. In exercises, the maintenance crew for AH-1 cobras goes ahead with them, but across the border, its a 50/50.
If the AH-1 has to fly back to Pakistani territory for replenishment or maintenance, it would again become costly (fuel) and time consuming. My guess is that AH-1 will be kept for defensive purposes to switch them to threatened sectors quickly.

Well that plan still goes very will cobras still do strike fear in hearts of indian armoured but we need to maintain that edge by acquiring new machine's.Regarding replenishment I agree with you,it's either ammo all gone are fuel gone on many mission,we need to select next helo with this in mind,I read many years ago that AH1 denel attack helo was designed with this whole replenishment cycle in mind.

As far as fighter cover for Pakistani forces in Indian territory is concerned, it may or may not be present so Pakistani ground forces will operate own AD systems to counter IAF bombings.

That may not be possible considering SEAD-DEAD mission of IAF,we do need fighters coverage when moving forward.

 

[cerberus]

My point was never that simple Infantry will run and search for ATGMs,I was replying and referring to the statements "its not possible to finde and locate ATGMs, because they are hidden", here I cant agree. With the use of reconnaissance this task can be also done.




I dont know where you get the Idea or in which relation to post indian weapons in this topic, when this topic describes itself as "Pakistan Army's 6th Armor Division". So to which post yours was referring, how it become relevant to post indian CBU weapons in this topic ?

We Discussing here Complete Conventional battle tactics in Armour War in battle field

CBU-105 is Next gen Anti Armour weapon For CAS role

 

[Signalian]

Well that plan still goes very will cobras still do strike fear in hearts of indian armoured but we need to maintain that edge by acquiring new machine's.Regarding replenishment I agree with you,it's either ammo all gone are fuel gone on many mission,we need to select next helo with this in mind,I read many years ago that AH1 denel attack helo was designed with this whole replenishment cycle in mind.

That may not be possible considering SEAD-DEAD mission of IAF,we do need fighters coverage when moving forward.

I am a fan of AH-2 Rooivalk. you are right about its design, the Rooivalk has been designed to operate for prolonged periods without sophisticated support. All that is needed to keep the Rooivalk flying is a medium transport helicopter equipped with a basic spares supply plus four ground crew.

Secondly, Mokopa ATGM has a range of 10km.

 

[Sine Nomine]

That is no doubt a good option if we try,we are in dire need of helos capable of firing FF ATGMS.I.am too fan of that machine,what makes it special among it's class is ease of logistics to keep it operational.
MAKOPA will be treat any day if we get hands on that,our main ATGM is still wire guided,one has to stay behind it untill it hits a target,we really need FF one's.

 

[wiseone2]

There are strategies devised in the battlefield to counter enemy ATGM's. Indian has a big arsenal of excellent modern ATGM's like Milan, Spike, Kornet-E etc, then there are local ones like Nag.

A few tactics that battle commanders employ to avoid, engage or destroy enemy ATGM teams are:

1. Use of Infantry ahead of tanks.


View attachment 332262

This helps to identify and destroy the ATGM positions by dismounted infantry while keeping tanks out of range till all ATGM operators are killed.

2. Use of terrain as cover while flanking the ATGM operator/ Gunner

View attachment 332263

The tank can use terrain as concealment and attack the ATGM operator or Gunner from flanks. The tank exposes itself for a few seconds, fires and kills the ATGM team and again moves into concealment of terrain before another ATGM team can target the tank. For this purpose:

1. The main gun of tank must be traversed in direction of the ATGM team.
2. The round should be loaded
3. Tank Gunner will only have a few seconds to check Gunner sights, correct error of Gun traverse by a few degrees to lock onto ATGM team and fire. Commander can assist with his sigts.
4. Driver ready to quickly move tank on commander order as soon as the round hits the target.


3. Designate a Tank as Spotter to engage ATGM team

View attachment 332264

In case infantry is not present, a tank troop (4 tanks) or a tank squadron (12-15 tanks) comes across an enemy ATGM team, its best to designate 1 tank (in troops) or 2-3 tanks (in squadron) as spotters to spot and engage ATGM team on revelation when ATGM is fired.

When 106mm RR guns were used, each round fired by RR used to create a dust cloud which automatically revealed position of RR gun.


4. Correct Choice of weapon to take out ATGM team

View attachment 332265

The above table shows which weapon to use at what distance to engage and destroy ATGM teams. Dismounted Infantry can use Mortars or bazookas as well as call artillery support to take out enemy ATGM teams, if ATGM team is more than 2000 meters away.

Pakistan Army used 155mm SP M-109 guns and 8 inch SP M-110 guns in its armoured forces. Artillery also fires smoke rounds to give a smoke screen for concealment of advance by infantry or tanks towards enemy positions. Tanks can also fire smoke grenades to retreat to a safe place for concealment.

The main problem that PA faces is BMP-2 because every BMP-2 carries minimum 6-8 rounds of ATGM, therefore increasing ATGM firepower delivery. destruction of IA BMP-2 should be the first aim of PA tanks and infantry.

tanks are vulnerable to anti-tank weapons and ground attack aircraft

 

[TaimiKhan]

My point was never that simple Infantry will run and search for ATGMs,I was replying and referring to the statements "its not possible to finde and locate ATGMs, because they are hidden", here I cant agree. With the use of reconnaissance this task can be also done.

Plz watch the video and see how 2 turkish tanks taken out by an ATGM man portable team from 4-5Kms away and yet so many tanks / IFVs or even infantry could not do anything. The ATGM team first hit one tank and then with ease reloaded and took out the 2nd tank and the Turks could not do anything. Do remember the ATGM teams will not fire till they are sure of their success and know their chances of escape are good.

ATGMs have played a very crucial role in the Syrian conflict and both sides have used them to great success, but the major factors which the ATGM teams enjoyed was urban nature of their hideouts and hilly terrain giving them clear line of sight to great distances, plus no aerial support to take out such teams.

Better to have good armor capabilities for tanks and direction finding systems so that tanks are able to engage the targets from where such ATGMs come. In this video had the Turks such capability to respond immediately to the location of the firing ATGM team the 2nd tank may have been saved but the turks failed and lost 2 tank in quick succession to the same firing team.

https://southfront.org/isis-burns-2-turkish-tanks-in-syria-video/

 

[Inception-06]

Plz watch the video and see how 2 turkish tanks taken out by an ATGM man portable team from 4-5Kms away and yet so many tanks / IFVs or even infantry could not do anything. The ATGM team first hit one tank and then with ease reloaded and took out the 2nd tank and the Turks could not do anything. Do remember the ATGM teams will not fire till they are sure of their success and know their chances of escape are good.

ATGMs have played a very crucial role in the Syrian conflict and both sides have used them to great success, but the major factors which the ATGM teams enjoyed was urban nature of their hideouts and hilly terrain giving them clear line of sight to great distances, plus no aerial support to take out such teams.

Better to have good armor capabilities for tanks and direction finding systems so that tanks are able to engage the targets from where such ATGMs come. In this video had the Turks such capability to respond immediately to the location of the firing ATGM team the 2nd tank may have been saved but the turks failed and lost 2 tank in quick succession to the same firing team.

https://southfront.org/isis-burns-2-turkish-tanks-in-syria-video/

The second Tank should had fire smoke grenades or all vehilcles should have fire smoke grenades and leave very fast the hot area, nothing happend all vehilce very standing like sitting ducks !

 

[Umair Nawaz]

6th Armoured officially didnt even exist in 1965 war but the role its units played stopped two indian divisions (armoured and infantry) at Chawinda.

25 cav.

 

[Signalian]

Pakistani 2nd Armoured Brigade Moving into Indian Anti-Tank Missile Trap was saved by a Recon flight from Air by OP in L-19 aircraft (1971 war)

Brigadier Ismat narrates "I was gratified to observe from the air, the 2nd Armoured brigade conducting a set piece attack like a demonstration in peace time with preliminary artillery fire and smoke on its flanks and they did not encounter any opposition. I noticed the brigade had stretched itself and was going a bit too south in their advance towards Chamb. I was in the air, observing area ahead and to the flanks of their manoeuvre
.
Suddenly, I noticed some movement and a closer look revealed a well dug in position by a company of anti tank missiles (later confirmed as SS-11 Guard Company, SS-11 is french ATGM). I was alarmed and alerted. I tried to warn the 2nd Armoured brigade commander of the impending danger by wireless. When I failed to establish communication I panicked because the lead tanks were getting closer and closer to the missile company.

In desperation I decided to land my aircraft in front of the leading tank. The squadron commander, Major Shamshad came out and I gave him the information and asked him to change the intended path of manoeuvre. The brigade complied without fuss. Major Shamshad told me that I had landed my aircraft in a minefield. He helped me in turning around my L-19 to take off on my old tracks made by the landing. I had never thanked him formally and I would like to do so now. To protect the flanks of the moving armoured brigade, I took several artillery shoots that day neutralising potential threat with success and satisfaction."

@Ulla

 

[Inception-06]

Pakistani 2nd Armoured Brigade Moving into Indian Anti-Tank Missile Trap was saved by a Recon flight from Air by OP in L-19 aircraft (1971 war)

View attachment 336115

Brigadier Ismat narrates "I was gratified to observe from the air, the 2nd Armoured brigade conducting a set piece attack like a demonstration in peace time with preliminary artillery fire and smoke on its flanks and they did not encounter any opposition. I noticed the brigade had stretched itself and was going a bit too south in their advance towards Chamb. I was in the air, observing area ahead and to the flanks of their manoeuvre
.
Suddenly, I noticed some movement and a closer look revealed a well dug in position by a company of anti tank missiles (later confirmed as SS-11 Guard Company, SS-11 is french ATGM). I was alarmed and alerted. I tried to warn the 2nd Armoured brigade commander of the impending danger by wireless. When I failed to establish communication I panicked because the lead tanks were getting closer and closer to the missile company.

In desperation I decided to land my aircraft in front of the leading tank. The squadron commander, Major Shamshad came out and I gave him the information and asked him to change the intended path of manoeuvre. The brigade complied without fuss. Major Shamshad told me that I had landed my aircraft in a minefield. He helped me in turning around my L-19 to take off on my old tracks made by the landing. I had never thanked him formally and I would like to do so now. To protect the flanks of the moving armoured brigade, I took several artillery shoots that day neutralising potential threat with success and satisfaction."

@Ulla

A selam

You have pointed out withe this story,very well the future role of the Mushaks in Pakistan Army ! Remembers me to the light german air craft "Storch" of the WW2:

1.Reconnaissance

2.Army co-operation (today called forward air control)

3.Medical evacuation.

Again Reconnaissance is must for any operation !

 

[Signalian]

A selam

You have pointed out withe this story,very well the future role of the Mushaks in Pakistan Army ! Remembers me to the light german air craft "Storch" of the WW2:

1.Reconnaissance

2.Army co-operation (today called forward air control)

3.Medical evacuation.

Again Reconnaissance is must for any operation !

A-5 of PAF were used for ground support roles.