Pakistan Army's 6th Armor Division in Tonight with Fareeha ; A must watch!

[Baloch Pakistani]

There are strategies devised in the battlefield to counter enemy ATGM's. Indian has a big arsenal of excellent modern ATGM's like Milan, Spike, Kornet-E etc, then there are local ones like Nag.

A few tactics that battle commanders employ to avoid, engage or destroy enemy ATGM teams are:

1. Use of Infantry ahead of tanks.


View attachment 332262

This helps to identify and destroy the ATGM positions by dismounted infantry while keeping tanks out of range till all ATGM operators are killed.

2. Use of terrain as cover while flanking the ATGM operator/ Gunner

View attachment 332263

The tank can use terrain as concealment and attack the ATGM operator or Gunner from flanks. The tank exposes itself for a few seconds, fires and kills the ATGM team and again moves into concealment of terrain before another ATGM team can target the tank. For this purpose:

1. The main gun of tank must be traversed in direction of the ATGM team.
2. The round should be loaded
3. Tank Gunner will only have a few seconds to check Gunner sights, correct error of Gun traverse by a few degrees to lock onto ATGM team and fire. Commander can assist with his sigts.
4. Driver ready to quickly move tank on commander order as soon as the round hits the target.


3. Designate a Tank as Spotter to engage ATGM team

View attachment 332264

In case infantry is not present, a tank troop (4 tanks) or a tank squadron (12-15 tanks) comes across an enemy ATGM team, its best to designate 1 tank (in troops) or 2-3 tanks (in squadron) as spotters to spot and engage ATGM team on revelation when ATGM is fired.

When 106mm RR guns were used, each round fired by RR used to create a dust cloud which automatically revealed position of RR gun.


4. Correct Choice of weapon to take out ATGM team

View attachment 332265

The above table shows which weapon to use at what distance to engage and destroy ATGM teams. Dismounted Infantry can use Mortars or bazookas as well as call artillery support to take out enemy ATGM teams, if ATGM team is more than 2000 meters away.

Pakistan Army used 155mm SP M-109 guns and 8 inch SP M-110 guns in its armoured forces. Artillery also fires smoke rounds to give a smoke screen for concealment of advance by infantry or tanks towards enemy positions. Tanks can also fire smoke grenades to retreat to a safe place for concealment.

The main problem that PA faces is BMP-2 because every BMP-2 carries minimum 6-8 rounds of ATGM, therefore increasing ATGM firepower delivery. destruction of IA BMP-2 should be the first aim of PA tanks and infantry.

1. In your view how many ATGM teams would be required to disrupt the enemy armor attack in different terrarins of punjab, sindh etc. (syrian n turkish tanks retreated after 2 or 3 tanks get hit)?

2. And the other question is, did israel not know these tactics against atgm teams? if yes then how come happened what happened to their armor in 2006 israel-lebanon war. (They developed trophy but fire n forget atgm teams will now attack and leave the top attack atgm, and again israeli or any tank will be a sitting duck.)

3. Is a group of tanks or a number of atgm teams r better defense against an enemy armor attack?

4. What is in ur view more accurate in long range from 2-4 km? A tank shell or an atgm.

And i think we should not bother with soft kill systems against atgms. They are useless, as proved in syria for syrian tanks, latest t90s, and turkish modern tanks. And we should keep deep focus on evolving atgm teams roles and tactics. Bcz they are proving to be a terror machine against tanks and infantry. (my 2 cents, i'm no expert).

 

[Ghazwa e Hind]

Pakistan Army has 2 artillery Divisions (21 artillery Div and 22 artillery Div) for concentrated fire on enemy positions. A rough guess would be minimum 108 guns for each division. If 100-150 guns are firing at a single enemy position you can imagine the amount of destruction to the area and to the morale as well as shell shock victims in that area.

Destruction. Destruction puts a target out of action permanently. Direct hits with high-explosive (HE) or concrete-piercing (CP) shells are required to destroy hard materiel targets. Usually, destruction requires large expenditures of ammunition and is not considered economical, except for nuclear weapons.

Neutralization. Neutralization knocks a target out of action temporarily. It can be achieved by use of any type of shell-fuze combination suitable for attacking a particular type of target. Neutralization does not require an extensive expenditure of ammunition and is the most practical type of mission. Most missions are neutralization fire.

Suppression. Suppression of a target limits the ability of the enemy Personnel in the target area to perform their jobs. Firing HE/VT or smoke creates apprehension and confuses the enemy. The effect of suppressive fires usually lasts only as long as the fires are continued. Suppression requires a low expenditure of ammunition; however, since its effects are not lasting, it is unsuitable for most targets.

Artillery can take out enemy ATGM positions as posted already showing 105mm, 155mm and 203mm (8 inch) rate of fire and distance. But to snipe out/take out such teams , a forward observer using observed fire is required, therefore either a recon team in light vehicles is required to go ahead keeping a safe distance from enemy and fire is directed on enemy. A recon UAV or helicopter can be used for this purpose also. But until all enemy ATGM teams are destroyed the recon element has to stay in area and direct fire. After the threat is neutralised then own infantry or armour can move in.
Like you said many factors involved, so there is no one single tactic or strategy involved.

Use of MLRS is also common now and if used against fortified enemy infantry positions, it can wreak havoc.

All of your messages deserves positive ratings here. This is the kind of discussion which should be made here on this forum.

I myself think about the advance of armored regimental group all the time in my fantasies and the possibilities which different weapon systems can opt in defeating a heavily protected area. Artillery is no doubt a God of War and effective use of artillery can suppress the enemy even before the advance of Tanks and APCs. I second your idea of using mechanized or foot infantry in an innovative way to provide a thin layer of forward defense to tanks. Tanks support the huge number of infantry soldiers behind them but tanks should also be protected in new ways. UAVs, MBRLs and Close air support is one option. Our military strategists surely practice all the possibilities in their wargames and war colleges.

 

[544_delta]

can snipers armed with anti-material rifles be used to suppress ATGM teams?

 

[Thorough Pro]

depends on the scenario i.e. location and geography of battlefield...........in india Pakistan scenario in the plains of Punjab or sind, probably not. An attack heli or ucav would be much more effective both in terms of visibility, range and effectiveness.

can snipers armed with anti-material rifles be used to suppress ATGM teams?

 

[Signalian]

1. In your view how many ATGM teams would be required to disrupt the enemy armor attack in different terrarins of punjab, sindh etc. (syrian n turkish tanks retreated after 2 or 3 tanks get hit)?

I'm not an expert too. I'm here to learn.

Pakistan has LAT battalions (Light anti tank), light is weight category,4 X 4 vehicle carrying ATGM like defender with green arrow missile. This forms part of every infantry division, 1 LAT per division. LAT also have recon capability and were previously Recon and support battalions (R&S). There are minimum 24 TOW/Green Arrow launchers per battalion.
These are good enough to defend an attack by enemy armoured regiment of 60 tanks. However, this battalion sends its companies to the divisions brigades so the anti tank capability is distributed in the whole division. There are 9 infantry assault battalions in an infantry division usually. All have limited AT capability and can use RPG or TOW.
Even if 2-4 or more AT launchers are with every infantry battalion and 24 ATGM jeeps of LAT, the infantry division has good enough AT capability.

Armoured divisions have HAT( heavy AT) like al talha APC With Green arrow missile or M 901.

Usually units retreat when 33% of whole strength is lost as its effectiveness finishes. In case of Syria and Turkey, they are not fighting regular armies and use of tanks changes depending what kind of war is being fought.

2. And the other question is, did israel not know these tactics against atgm teams? if yes then how come happened what happened to their armor in 2006 israel-lebanon war. (They developed trophy but fire n forget atgm teams will now attack and leave the top attack atgm, and again israeli or any tank will be a sitting duck.)

Israel devised many tactics against ATGM attacks since 1970's. The 2006 war was with guerrilla forces not with a regular army. This was usually a small well armed force attacking IDF with ATGMs and some battles took place in urban terrain. 2006 was 10 years ago, IDF changes it doctrines and tactics very quickly.

I think TROPHY system came up after 2007 for Merkava IV. Its claimed that it can counter high elevation ATGM so probably it can intercept Top attack ATGM.

3. Is a group of tanks or a number of atgm teams r better defense against an enemy armor attack?

The ATGM team is better defence against enemy tanks for following reasons:

1. ATGM teams are deadly in well hidden/protected defending an area. Especially in elevated places where they can target enemy tanks in ranges above 2500m.
2. ATGMs(TOW/Green Arrow) used by Pakistan cannot fire on the move, The operator or vehicle has to stop and fire. so it fits a defensive profile.
3. Tanks can fire in the move, so they fit an offensive profile.They give lethal fire power and morale boosting to own infantry during an attack.
4. If the tanks are lost in a defensive battle against enemy, the offensive power of an infantry division diminishes.
5. Tanks dug in defensive positions like "pill boxes" are easy targets for enemy artillery/aircraft/mortar/ ATGM etc. Tank's mobility plays an important role in conducting missions.

4. What is in ur view more accurate in long range from 2-4 km? A tank shell or an atgm.

ATGM is guided by operator so its more accurate.

And i think we should not bother with soft kill systems against atgms. They are useless, as proved in syria for syrian tanks, latest t90s, and turkish modern tanks. And we should keep deep focus on evolving atgm teams roles and tactics. Bcz they are proving to be a terror machine against tanks and infantry. (my 2 cents, i'm no expert).

Any protection system either soft,active etc can fail in battlefield. It can also be disabled through a lucky hit by enemy fire. Sometimes, the system may not get repaired in battlefield however this doesnt render the tank useless. Therefore its better to be prepared for any contingency and not just dependent on systems for protection against ATGM.
The doctrines, tactics and strategies should be in place to counter any threat or face mishap without compromising objectives, which makes training in peace time very important.

 

[Inception-06]

what about using the artillery before sending in the armour or infantry?

Exactly thats what I have learned, before we could move in our target area, the red zone came under a heavy carpet bombing of our Artillery. In the case of Pakistan Army, there is no shortage of rounds and Artillery guns for this task ! The Syrian Army has not a functional artillery arm, but we have and the turkish Army cant do a carpet bombing, because they will come very fast under internationl political and Media pressure. But in a totall war scenario of Pakistan and India this times, the war will be very destructiv, Pakistan will not shy to make the area flat before sending his strike formations in enemy Land ! So the few enemy anti Tank weapons which will survive the Artillery will be engaged by our heavy storm Infantry. But like everything there is no perfect formula, it depends on the battlefield environment and on the leadership, the skills and creativity of the Officers and his mens. There are always many ways to use less force to crush a bigger enemy !

Thanks for the reply, I should have elaborated further. The point I was trying to make was in reference to your stated techniques/tactics to avoid enemy ATGM's. So rather than sending the APC's or infantry why not use concentrated heavy artillery shelling from a safe distance to really break the moral and back bone of enemy strike element and or their defensive (SAM and ATGM) units before sending our own armoured and infantry units to reduce the losses and make it easier for them to clean up the leftover. I know it's a big subject with many variables, counters and counter-counters that all can't be discussed.

Your Idea is correct, but in reality Artillery can't take take out all ATGMs and targets.
Many indian bunkers,ATGMS will simply survive, especially in the Pak-India war, because both side have build a deep trench and bunker system in Punjab and Kashmir area, which is very difficult to overun, thats why the indians see the future battlefield in Rajastan a la Thar Sindh. Rajastan gives the Pakistan and Indian Army a flat Land, no water canals, no chance for flooding a whole area ideal for indian Tank penetrations, the same battelfield we will use to face the indians, thats why most Al-Khalids are based in Sindh, Thar and while Multan area homes more T-80UD and Punjab a combination of T-85IIMP and Al-Zarrars.

Check this please, so could look the enemy defence lines in a Indo-pak scenario, its not anymore 1965, both side are building since 50 years bunkers and trenches a long the Border.

Thanks for the reply, I should have elaborated further. The point I was trying to make was in reference to your stated techniques/tactics to avoid enemy ATGM's. So rather than sending the APC's or infantry why not use concentrated heavy artillery shelling from a safe distance to really break the moral and back bone of enemy strike element and or their defensive (SAM and ATGM) units before sending our own armoured and infantry units to reduce the losses and make it easier for them to clean up the leftover. I know it's a big subject with many variables, counters and counter-counters that all can't be discussed.

Shtora is considered one of the best ACTIVE protection system on the market. But it failed, totally failed. Yesterday 2 trukish tanks were cooked off by isis ATGMs. ATGM is the king now, not the tank.

@Baloch Pakistani

Sorry most of the time I just read here in PDF but sometimes I have to loss also some words.

"ATGM is the King": In modern warfare you would never send Tanks in urban area, so chance that Pakistan Tanks wil face a syrian scenario is low.

First we have to talk how and where is your target located, is it hidden near or in a river, build in a trench, hidden in a civil flat, hidden behinde bushes, hidden in the desert in the dschungel in the mountain ?

Does the enemy have 24 hours air cover, does the enemy have own Tank formations which can be thrown against ours, will we have enough infantry reserves, do have 24 hour air cover, are we attacking enemy trench systems, is our battlefield in Punjab or Kashmir ? Etc. its not easy just to say ATGM is the King, thats bullshit sorry cant read anymore such wishfull and white paper war dreams !

If you guys want talk how to destroy ATGMs than we must first talk about the battlefield environment, make a scenario, with Numbers of Troops, area, weapons etc. than we can start to discuss, indian members are already doing this since 10 years in their own bhartishakshak.com forum ! All Members should take this as a lesson, we here in PDF must learn to describe battlefield scenarios otherwise we cant make a realistic conclusion, its like mathematic, do you want forever study on the High-School level or you want also explore the ground of the University Level. Thats also a message for other Members @Zarvan (sorry dear there are many more Memebrs,but cant name them all) and other weapon fanboys who dream day a night of Super dupa guns and SU-3333 what so not, learn to study your tools which you have and than make a plan how you can use this tools in our Pak-Indo battlefield.

@Sarge Is that the right way ?

 

[A_Poster]

Not based on any calculations but I thing artillery is the most cost effective (acquisition, maintenance, training, operation, ammo, etc.) in terms of destruction/$ basis, engages the enemy from a safe distance and delivers total destruction. Add to that fire location radar, effective air defence and CAS, and any cold start can be evaporated in to steam.

And easier to kill.

Artillery is a soft target and is vulnerable to counter-battery fire and air interdiction. More concentrated artillery is, easier it is to hit it back.

And before dreaming of evaporating cold start into steam, remember that you people are in inferior position materially and India has better version of everything that you have ,and in larger numbers too.

The main problem that PA faces is BMP-2 because every BMP-2 carries minimum 6-8 rounds of ATGM, therefore increasing ATGM firepower delivery. destruction of IA BMP-2 should be the first aim of PA tanks and infantry.

ATGM with BMP are bolted version of shoulder fired Konkur ATGMs which have limited range. Apart from that India has dedicated vehicle mounted heavy ATGMs like NAG which outrange tanks.

 

[Signalian]

ATGM with BMP are bolted version of shoulder fired Konkur ATGMs which have limited range. Apart from that India has dedicated vehicle mounted heavy ATGMs like NAG which outrange tanks.

which is why 125mm smooth bore gun is used on PA tanks to fire ATGM's to engage targets at longer ranges.

Exactly thats what I have learned, before we could move in our target area, the red zone came under a heavy carpet bombing of our Artillery. In the case of Pakistan Army, there is no shortage of rounds and Artillery guns for this task ! The Syrian Army has not a functional artillery arm, but we have and the turkish Army cant do a carpet bombing, because they will come very fast under internationl political and Media pressure. But in a totall war scenario of Pakistan and India this times, the war will be very destructiv, Pakistan will not shy to make the area flat before sending his strike formations in enemy Land ! So the few enemy anti Tank weapons which will survive the Artillery will be engaged by our heavy storm Infantry. But like everything there is no perfect formula, it depends on the battlefield environment and on the leadership, the skills and creativity of the Officers and his mens. There are always many ways to use less force to crush a bigger enemy !




Your Idea is correct, but in reality Artillery cant take out all ATGMs and targets.
Many indian bunkers,ATGMS will simply survive, especially in the Pak-India war, because both side have build a deep trench and bunker system in Punjab and Kashmir area, which is very difficult to overun, thats why the indians see the future battlefield in Rajastan a la Thar Sindh. Rajastan gives the Indians a llat Land, no water canals, no chance for flooding a whole area ideal for indian Tanke penetrations, the same battelfield we will use to face the indians, thats why most Al-Khalids are based in Sindh, Thar and while Multan area homes more T-80UD and Punjab a combination of T-85IIMP and Al-Zarars.

Check this please, so could look the enemy defence lines in a Indo-pak scenario, its not anymore 1965, both side are building since 50 years bunkers and trenches a long the Border.

View attachment 332594





@Baloch Pakistani


ATGM is the King: In modern warfare you would never send Tanks in urban area, so chance that Pakistan Tanks wil face a syrian scenario is low.

First we have to talk how and where is your target located, is it hidden near or in a river, build in a trench, hidden in a civil flat, hidden behinde bushes, hidden in the desert in the dschungel in the mountain ?

Does the enemy have 24 hours air cover, doese the enemy have own Tank formations which can be thrown against ours, will we have enougn infantry reserves, do have 24 hour air cover, are we attacking enemy trench systems, is our battlefield in Punjab or Kashmir ? Etc. its not easy just to say ATGM is the King, thats bullshit sorry cant read anymore such wishfull and white paper war dreams !

If you guys want talk how to destroy ATGMs than we must first talk about the battlefield environment, make a scenario, with Numbers of Troops, area, weapons etc. than we can start to discuss, indian members are already doing this since 10 years in their own bhartishakshak.com forum ! All Members should take this as a lesson, we here in PDF must learn to describe battlefield scenarios otherwise we can make a realistic conclusion, its like mathematic, do you want forever study on the High-School level or you want also explore the ground of the University Level. Thats also a message for other Members @Zarvan (sorry dear there are many more but cant name them all) and other weapon fanboys who dream day a night of Super dupa guns and SU-3333 what so not, learn to study your tools which you have and than make a plan how you can use this tools in our Pak-Indo battlefield.

@Sarge Is that the right way ?

Sure mate, this can be done Interested members can start such topics and i will chip in with whatever i know also, I am learning new things also through discussions.

 

[Inception-06]

And easier to kill.

Artillery is a soft target and is vulnerable to counter-battery fire and air interdiction. More concentrated artillery is, easier it is to hit it back.

And before dreaming of evaporating cold start into steam, remember that you people are in inferior position materially and India has better version of everything that you have ,and in larger numbers too.



ATGM with BMP are bolted version of shoulder fired Konkur ATGMs which have limited range. Apart from that India has dedicated vehicle mounted heavy ATGMs like NAG which outrange tanks.

Who says that all Pakistani Army Divisions will be used for offensive operations in your land ? We will let the indian Divisions bleed out on our terrirtory, because its a indian cold start dream to cut Pakistan in two pieces, and for that India must be conduct offensive operations.

Its a well known fact in every military history, that offensive operations in enemy land are more costly for men and machine, the figure for losses are about 10 times higher than a defensive operation. So what ever space weapons you hide, for any indian agression and operation on our land, your forces will have to pay the double liters of blood than our Soldiers.

 

[Thorough Pro]

not if it's self propelled, and concentrated artillery fire is different from concentration of artillery units.

And easier to kill.

Artillery is a soft target and is vulnerable to counter-battery fire and air interdiction. More concentrated artillery is, easier it is to hit it back.

And before dreaming of evaporating cold start into steam, remember that you people are in inferior position materially and India has better version of everything that you have ,and in larger numbers too.



ATGM with BMP are bolted version of shoulder fired Konkur ATGMs which have limited range. Apart from that India has dedicated vehicle mounted heavy ATGMs like NAG which outrange tanks.

 

[TaimiKhan]

@Sarge

Weren't LAT equipped with just RR carrying jeeps ? And HAT were equipped with ATGMs

OR the structure has changed now.

 

[Signalian]

@Sarge

Weren't LAT equipped with just RR carrying jeeps ? And HAT were equipped with ATGMs

OR the structure has changed now.

It has changed as far as i know however correct me if i am wrong, for example, 26 Punjab was R&S with RR jeeps.It changed to LAT from R&S with ATGM defenders.

This is another online information about R&S Battalions.
Post number 4
http://www.pakdef.org/forum/topic/8189-recce-and-support-battalions/

19 Baloch Regiment.
The battalion was re-designated and reorganized as a Light Anti Tank (LAT) Battalion in May 1991. This reorganization was part of Pakistan Army's overall reforms introduced in that year. Apart from reorganization in the company strengths, newer weapon systems such as Baktar Shikan were also introduced. In 1991, the spelling of 'Baluch' was changed to 'Baloch.'

Source is wiki, so will need verification.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/19_Baloch_Regiment

 

[Inception-06]

Add to that fire location radar, effective air defence and CAS, and any cold start can be evaporated in to steam.

Not really you are underestimate the indian Forces ! Check their equipment and number of Divisions ! Its not simple like that !

 

[Baloch Pakistani]

@Baloch Pakistani

Sorry most of the time I just read here in PDF but sometimes I have to loss also some words.

"ATGM is the King": In modern warfare you would never send Tanks in urban area, so chance that Pakistan Tanks wil face a syrian scenario is low.

its not easy just to say ATGM is the King, thats bullshit sorry cant read anymore such wishfull and white paper war dreams !

If you guys want talk how to destroy ATGMs than we must first talk about the battlefield environment, make a scenario, with Numbers of Troops, area, weapons etc. than we can start to discuss, indian members are already doing this since 10 years in their own bhartishakshak.com forum ! All Members should take this as a lesson, we here in PDF must learn to describe battlefield scenarios otherwise we cant make a realistic conclusion, its like mathematic, do you want forever study on the High-School level or you want also explore the ground of the University Level. Thats also a message for other Members @Zarvan (sorry dear there are many more Memebrs,but cant name them all) and other weapon fanboys who dream day a night of Super dupa guns and SU-3333 what so not, learn to study your tools which you have and than make a plan how you can use this tools in our Pak-Indo battlefield.

@Sarge Is that the right way ?

Appreciate your and @Sarge detailed response. As i said before that i'm no expert in this tank warfare, infact i only have a shallow knowledge of it. I claimed "ATGM is the king" on the basis of israel-lebanon and syria war only, and both are mostly guerilla wars, but they did have some pitched battles too in which both sides used ATGM's in abundance against tanks, APC's, bunkers, enemy gatherings and helicoptors too. If you see the videos of syrian warfare it is evident that ATGM teams does make the tanks run away with their tails between their legs. In the battle of aleppo rebels used 5 atgm teams and they just massacred the syrian armor in the aleppo country side, even though syrian army had a complete Artillery base just 5 km behind the frontlines and also had russian n syrian airforce to help them from the air which were pounding 80 airstrikes per day on the enemy, BUT the rebels took the Artillery base with in 2 days bcz of alot more troops on their side. They fired 38 atgms per day and destroyed syrian armor, bunkers, sniper hides, observation posts and troop concentrations.

If you want a scenerio then i present you the senerio of aleppo battle which took place between 1st of aug 2016 to 7 of september 2016. Rebels used 10 suicide APC's to make way for the rebels. Rebels were attacking from the country side into urban area so syrian army had advantage.

Troops: Syrian Army 5000 VS Rebels 9000
30 tanks n APC VS Rebels 10-15 Tanks n APC (VBIED's not included)
RUAF n SYAF VS Rebels had no aircover
Unknown ATGM VS Rebels 5 ATGM teams (just devistated any defensive positions)
surveillance drones VS Surveillance Drones
2nd largest Artillery Base VS Hell Canons, and Heavy artillery
Were in Buildings n bunkers VS Were in the open in country side (took hills from syrian army)
Didn't used shock troop VS Used overwhelming number of shock troops (wave after wave)
400 kIA VS More than 1000 KIA
Lost Base n surrounding areas VS Rebel victory

Syrian Army brought special forces n took the same area from rebels after a month of daily attack and daily pounding of artillery and airforce. Many many syrian army tanks n apc destroyed by rebels atgm during defense too. Whether offensive or defensive, the tanks had no chance against ATGM in this battle n many other battles in country side and mountainous area. So my question is what should have they done to defend that aleppo area from rebels. How should have they used the tanks and apc there.

We are no experts and thats why guys like you and @Sarge should come and educate us so that we don't talk foolishly on the forums. I m just telling what i saw and observed.

 

[Signalian]

Appreciate your and @Sarge detailed response. As i said before that i'm no expert in this tank warfare, infact i only have a shallow knowledge of it. I claimed "ATGM is the king" on the basis of israel-lebanon and syria war only, and both are mostly guerilla wars, but they did have some pitched battles too in which both sides used ATGM's in abundance against tanks, APC's, bunkers, enemy gatherings and helicoptors too. If you see the videos of syrian warfare it is evident that ATGM teams does make the tanks run away with their tails between their legs. In the battle of aleppo rebels used 5 atgm teams and they just massacred the syrian armor in the aleppo country side, even though syrian army had a complete Artillery base just 5 km behind the frontlines and also had russian n syrian airforce to help them from the air which were pounding 80 airstrikes per day on the enemy, BUT the rebels took the Artillery base with in 2 days bcz of alot more troops on their side. They fired 38 atgms per day and destroyed syrian armor, bunkers, sniper hides, observation posts and troop concentrations.

If you want a scenerio then i present you the senerio of aleppo battle which took place between 1st of aug 2016 to 7 of september 2016. Rebels used 10 suicide APC's to make way for the rebels. Rebels were attacking from the country side into urban area so syrian army had advantage.

Troops: Syrian Army 5000 VS Rebels 9000
30 tanks n APC VS Rebels 10-15 Tanks n APC (VBIED's not included)
RUAF n SYAF VS Rebels had no aircover
Unknown ATGM VS Rebels 5 ATGM teams (just devistated any defensive positions)
surveillance drones VS Surveillance Drones
2nd largest Artillery Base VS Hell Canons, and Heavy artillery
Were in Buildings n bunkers VS Were in the open in country side (took hills from syrian army)
Didn't used shock troop VS Used overwhelming number of shock troops (wave after wave)
400 kIA VS More than 1000 KIA
Lost Base n surrounding areas VS Rebel victory

Syrian Army brought special forces n took the same area from rebels after a month of daily attack and daily pounding of artillery and airforce. Many many syrian army tanks n apc destroyed by rebels atgm during defense too. Whether offensive or defensive, the tanks had no chance against ATGM in this battle n many other battles in country side and mountainous area. So my question is what should have they done to defend that aleppo area from rebels. How should have they used the tanks and apc there.

We are no experts and thats why guys like you and @Sarge should come and educate us so that we don't talk foolishly on the forums. I m just telling what i saw and observed.

This is what i could come up with. The full map is small and text can hardly be read so i have cropped it below at certain places to magnify a few events. you can save it and open it to have clear view hopefully.
You can also click on map to zoom in automatically

Red zone is Syrian.
Green zone is Rebels.
Yellow is my addition.

Infantry is entrenched along yellow defensive line.

Defending Aleppo artillery College and then advancing westwards are main objectives. As the "chickens neck" (north of Aleppo artillery college) will become safe and artillery support will be guaranteed in future.

1. Taking 1070 apartments project (Al-Nasr) will cause lots of causalities so its best that SF or LCB type forces take it. This is the starting point.

Regular infantry simultaneously starts attacking Aqrab and Rashidin to stop rebels from reinforcing Al-Nasr and in future to secure this location by capturing it to stop rebel attacks in north-east towards city(Assad Military Academy) as well as south east direction towards Aleppo Artillery College.

Its best to use T-72 and BMP-2 in open ground for manoeuvring and clear Line-of-sight but flanks protected by infantry to keep safe from ATGM ambushes.

Tanks attack enemy Air Defence Battalion (not shown in this photo but arrow points towards it)
Infantry attacks Khan Tuman Storage Base.
Mechanised infantry goes North on right side of "Tank attack" arrow.

Mechanised infantry dismounts BMP and attacks enemy Missile battalion.
Tanks capture Air Defense Battalion area
(3) Infantry deploys to secure this location and south western side of Aleppo Artillery College is secured.

(4)Rashidin Al-Khamisah is a strategic point fromw here enemy can launch attacks on Aleppo Artillery College so capturing this location is must.

SF takes the 1070 apartment project (Al-Nasr) and advances forward.
Regular Infantry leaves entrenched position and attacks
Mechanised infantry dismounts BMP and attacks from foot while BMP provides firepower.

Once this point is captured,Aleppo Artillery College can be considered safe and further attacks can be launched westwards by Syria..

There will be mistakes and corrections so feel free to point out. Im sure military professionals can make a million times better plan than this.

@Baloch Pakistani next time, please discuss Pakistan-India scenarios.