PAKISTAN ARMY INDUCTS NEW ARMOURED CARRIERS FOR COUNTERTERRORISM OPERATIONS

[The Terminator]

thousands of soldiers lives and limbs late

That too for just show off and probably to park in military bases. Or to protect Generals! . If their total number is 300, it would be foolish to think that it would be provided to the "PBI" foot soldier who is actually fighting on the Frontline.

Armored vehicles should be procured in thousands to even make a difference to the average infantryman's safety. Until then our brave men would keep loosing lives and limbs as usual.

 

[Enigma SIG]

That too for just show off and probably to park in military bases. Or to protect Generals! .

It's an upgrade.

Pehle Vigo me chukke jate te.

Now APCs.

 

[The Terminator]

Thing is, when most people say, "privatize POF/HIT/PAC, etc" they don't do it without articulating the exact problems with those state-owned enterprises (SOE) and how private ownership would solve them.

That's why I take the "middle road" approach.

Let's keep POF, HIT, PAC, KSEW, etc, as SOEs, but put their day-to-day management in the hands of industry professionals.

Use legislation to create a wall that prevents the armed forces from interfering in the SOEs' leadership and, instead, have the SOEs accountable to tangible KPIs. These KPIs should be: cost control (not cost reduction, but control to ensure that the money is all going into strategically valuable projects), profitability, talent development, etc.

The Turkish model is pretty good.

Their big hitters -- e.g., TAI, Aselsan, Havelsan, etc -- are state-owned, but the military leadership doesn't run the day-to-day. Instead, SOE management is done by industrial experts (often engineers) like Dr. Ismail Demir and Dr. Temel Kotil.

Basically, the Turkish generals realized they don't need to run the defence industry directly. They can leave it to the experts who, in turn, will drive profitability and growth. Then that growth benefits the Turkish generals by driving more capital into the military's pension fund which, in turn, re-invests that money into other ventures (like buying British steel IP). As these ventures grow, the cheques Turkey's military officers cash each gets bigger, more Turks get high-value employment, Turkey's exports go up, etc, etc.

That said, we should also integrate the private sector into our industry. If we leave our SOEs in the hands of experts with a cost-control focus, they'll defer a lot of work to private companies. We'd reach point where PAC might only assemble a fighter plane, but all of the aerostructures, inputs, etc, are coming from various privately-owned Pakistani companies. That's the goal.

Yeah great! Wishful thinking though . The real question is who will bell the cat?

If history teaches something then till now it's proven that no legislation can prevent the Generals in Pakistan from carrying out their hearts wishes. Turkish Generals thought for their next generation officers to bear the fruit of what they did through gradual pension funds increase. Who needs those meager pensions when you literally have the infinite power to take over the whole country let alone a few companies or corporations.

The million dollar question is still who would bell the cat and how? First put those beloved Generals under some rule of law and a constitution, then you could hope that those reforms or legislations would have some effect.

For PAEC is mostly run by those so called "industry professionals". Is it transparent and efficient enough? Are those industrial professionals are free from the talons of the dozens of intelligence agencies and military Generals and encroachment of their power? IMHO absolutely not.

Even if you somehow miraculously you succeed in pressurizing them enough to reform, they would just copy their PAEC kind of model on those companies. And plz note that, military doesn't consider retired Generals as military personnel but instead they are fully eligible as the "industrial professionals" as per their book

 

[The Terminator]

They are soldiers first. The point being made is that these organizations need to be taken out of the hands of the military and run and staffed by the best personnel available from the private sector. Serving military personnel, who are qualified, should be used primarily for requirement definition and product assessment, and even here should operate in conjunction with private sector experts, with no conflict of interest.

That's how MIC work in civilized parts of the globe. Are we? ...

 

[newb3e]

good protection for thier wadera partners in crime from people of Pakistan!

lumber 1 the protectors of waderas and corrupts!

 

[The Terminator]

Frankly, the only short-term solution I can think of is to basically convert every defense R&D engineer and scientist into a commissioned officer (e.g., a short-service commission) that gives them a solid 10-year contract, a fair starting rank (i.e., prestige), and -- hopefully -- a road ot building genuine R&D leadership within the armed forces. So, eventually, several of these officers (who'd also be experienced scientists) could head up PAC, SUPARCO, etc, as 1-star or 2-star generals. It's crazy, and it probably makes no sense, but it's bizarre enough that it might just work in our specific case.

Uniforms can march and fight in perfect synchronization. But uniforms can't innovate or invent. Innovation comes from the people with free will and free minds.

General sahib can't dictate to innovate now and you have 3 hours to come up with the solution.

That's why democratic, free people of west are much more innovative and tech savvy than authoritarian and corrupt regimes like Russia for example. Because the absolute power corrupts and hinders the imagination of the free minds!

 

[Sifar zero]

Frankly, the only short-term solution I can think of is to basically convert every defense R&D engineer and scientist into a commissioned officer (e.g., a short-service commission) that gives them a solid 10-year contract, a fair starting rank (i.e., prestige), and -- hopefully -- a road ot building genuine R&D leadership within the armed forces. So, eventually, several of these officers (who'd also be experienced scientists) could head up PAC, SUPARCO, etc, as 1-star or 2-star generals. It's crazy, and it probably makes no sense, but it's bizarre enough that it might just work in our specific case.

Yes or send some officers abroad for specialised degrees.

 

[Mav3rick]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1564276284636954625

https://twitter.com/x/status/1564276304450822147

https://twitter.com/x/status/1564276375263256577

We cannot even build decent Armored Personnel Carrier at Heavy Industries Taxila???? WTF are we importing most damn things?

 

[Zarvan]

We cannot even build decent Armored Personnel Carrier at Heavy Industries Taxila???? WTF are we importing most damn things?

Turns out HIT and POF both don't have very good R & D and departments or let say they don't spend much on R & D. They are dam good at producing things which come under TOT with machinery to do it but not develop their own things.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

That's how MIC work in civilized parts of the globe. Are we? ...

In our country the Army leadership can't even let elected governments work in peace and without engaging in constitutional violations of manipulating and blackmailing politicians and other institutions into weakening, strengthening and overthrowing governments.

So expecting the military leadership to hand over control of their 'cash cows' is a essentially a dream at this point.

The only silver lining in this fiasco is that even ultra-nationalist platforms like this one now have a majority finally realizing that the Military leadership (the Army leadership especially) is a massive problem holding back Pakistan's democratic and institutional evolution and progression.

@waz so many off topic posts in thread now , no new discussion ongoing just retards present now , pls lock thread till further news ( Probably after a few months ).

How is this conversation off topic?

The Army made an acquisition using taxpayer money. They have an obligation to the Citizens of Pakistan to be transparent about the details of how and why Taxpayer money was used.

No one has been able to explain what the detailed specifications of this acquisition are, why it was chosen over others, what kind of testing and assessments took place, why the existing Pakistani Military Industrial complex wasn't able to provide anything similar etc.

And when you ask these questions, the natural progression is to then discuss the failings of the existing setup and how widespread the rot has spread.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Yes or send some officers abroad for specialised degrees.

Still not good enough.

When we're talking about high tech research, part-timers are not going to cut it. You need people who not only have specialized degrees in the relevant fields, but work solely/full time in those fields.

 

[Inception-06]

It can support Remote Weapon Station RWS. So no need to pop up your head from there and install heavy metal shields to protect it in return.

I don’t see how the trooper will be able to fire MG-3 without uncovering his head. The top is open, so if the Machine gun have has a minimum angel of 200 degree for covering the front, where and how the Trooper will stand and install the MG-3 ?
It will be on the front as it’s usually seen on the current fleet and that means still NO cover and protection for the most important weapon of this vehicles.

 

[Inception-06]

It can support Remote Weapon Station RWS. So no need to pop up your head from there and install heavy metal shields to protect it in return.

@Raja Porus

That’s something which is more progressive !

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Yeah great! Wishful thinking though . The real question is who will bell the cat?

If history teaches something then till now it's proven that no legislation can prevent the Generals in Pakistan from carrying out their hearts wishes. Turkish Generals thought for their next generation officers to bear the fruit of what they did through gradual pension funds increase. Who needs those meager pensions when you literally have the infinite power to take over the whole country let alone a few companies or corporations.

The million dollar question is still who would bell the cat and how? First put those beloved Generals under some rule of law and a constitution, then you could hope that those reforms or legislations would have some effect.

For PAEC is mostly run by those so called "industry professionals". Is it transparent and efficient enough? Are those industrial professionals are free from the talons of the dozens of intelligence agencies and military Generals and encroachment of their power? IMHO absolutely not.

Even if you somehow miraculously you succeed in pressurizing them enough to reform, they would just copy their PAEC kind of model on those companies. And plz note that, military doesn't consider retired Generals as military personnel but instead they are fully eligible as the "industrial professionals" as per their book

I agree. Our problems go beyond the discussion of how these institutions should run, and more to do with the psyche of our leaders (general, politician, judge, etc). Whatever mental block they're all suffering from is also blocking our progress as a nation.

 

[JonAsad]

I can see in future, 1 high ranker in APC and foot soldiers in Hilux following it. So what is the point?