Pakistan Army has 570 VT 4 on order and with TOT

[iLION12345_1]

Sejjeel vs old apfsds side by side

View attachment 926125View attachment 926126
PA armor is now officially a long rod penetrator user. It's an elite club in it's own right.

PA:
BM-42 (small number from Ukraine) and APFSDS/T (Local production of Chinese 125-1 APFSDS) in late 90s, Both rated at 460MM/0 degrees at 2000M.

Naiza DU (APFSDS/T with indigenous DU penetrator) in early 2000s, 550-570MM/0 degrees at 2000M.

Both were standard PA APFSDS until late 2010s.

BTA-4 with VT-4, possibly the best ammo that can be fired from all PA MBTs since Sejjel might be a bit longer. 600-650MM/0 degrees at 2000M.

Sejjel in 2021, 650+ MM at 0 degrees at 2000M. Has a longer penetrator than anything China makes at the moment, performance likely similar to Chinese DTC-10-125 used in ZTZ-99A (Which has the same overall dimensions as BTA-4, but a longer penetrator as well).

Unknown ammo with 720MM/0 Degrees at 2000M already tested, likely will only fit in AK-1, VT-4 and UD, however AK-1s autoloader will likely be put into AKs along with their ERA and other modernizations.

800MM + ammo being considered for future acquisition.

IA:

BM13 and BM15 since late 90s to 2016. 300MM/0 degrees at 2000M (This figure is matched by the Ammo used in PAs Type 59s and 69s with the 105MM Gun).
BM42 after 2016, 460MM/0 Degrees at 2000M.

And some will claim IA has the armored edge. The devil is in the details.

Funnily enough, the TIs IA installed in its T90S don’t work in the desert because of overheating, the T90S came with AC, but it isn’t good enough to cool the cabin in South Asian deserts, and there is no room for a larger AC unit (this problem has been apparent since 2006). They’ve been trying to install better ACs since, but have still not completed the program as far as I can tell. AK and VT4 don’t have this problem, however I’m certain UD, UG and AZ will suffer similar issues if deployed in the desert (some UDs already have).

 

[arslank03]

Yes and that's why the whole world is moving towards reducing armour and increasing drones. Stupid them hey! What do they know when we have PDF experts

Which world? The forces with budget constrains? The UK? Because the west and the east are all developing Next Gen MBTs which seems pretty silly if they're planning on getting rid of tanks for drones. Oh, or have some forces actually said "hey guys were replacing tanks with drones", or are YOU trying to be the PDF expert

It's amazing how you who has zero military experience know more than experts who actually spend money on weapons.
Western nations are reducing their reliance on big ticket tanks and moving towards highly mobile and agile drones. But you know more than any expert.
No country can guarantee or have adequate air defence cover. Loops will be founds and exploited.
Russia is portrayed AD incompetent but its nit fighting Ukraine its fighting NATO


Yes...arguing is pointless. Why would yiu argue.

lol, ive presented numbers and fact, youve presented... nothing?

Can you name some militaries phasing out tanks for drones?

 

[Trango Towers]

Which world? The forces with budget constrains? The UK? Because the west and the east are all developing Next Gen MBTs which seems pretty silly if they're planning on getting rid of tanks for drones. Oh, or have some forces actually said "hey guys were replacing tanks with drones", or are YOU trying to be the PDF expert


lol, ive presented numbers and fact, youve presented... nothing?

Can you name some militaries phasing out tanks for drones?

Can you show me where I said replace tanks for drone..?
That's your understanding?
Your facts and figures looooool ...

Tank numbers are being reduced
Look at UK tanks numbers. Why are they so low? Especially now when world is on the edge of war

Tank vs tank battles arnt going to happen like WW2. They will happen but not at the same scale

The British Army Invented Tanks. Now It Could Kill Them.

History suggests the country will regret that decision.

www.popularmechanics.com

Have a read for yourself.
All you pdf generals mock me but you are third world thinking and behind the times. So keep laughing

 

[arslank03]

Can you show me where I said replace tanks for drone..?
That's your understanding?
You facts and figures looooool ...

Which military has reduced Armor for the sake of inducting more drones and deemed Armor obsolete?

 

[Trango Towers]

Which military has reduced Armor for the sake of inducting more drones and deemed Armor obsolete?

Read the above post with the link bro..
I think u just like arguing instead of reading and researching

@arslank03

Bro read this

Your Tanks Cannot Hide

Massed Turkish drone and artillery strikes against Syrian tanks and armoured vehicles have major implications for the viability of traditional armoured manoeuvre warfare on the modern battlefield.

rusi.org

 

[arslank03]

Read the above post with the link bro..
I think u just like arguing instead of reading and researching

"The forces with budget constrains?"

I knew you were going to bring the British up, funnily enough, the Brits are now considering a further expansion of the tank fleet due to lessons from Ukraine, the complete opposite of what you're proposing LOL

UK to consider whether it needs larger tank fleet

One hundred and forty-eight UK Challenger 2 main battle tanks are due to be upgraded to Challenger 3s.

www.forces.net

On top of that, as i mentioned before, the British decision was as a result of a tight budget, and even then, they were upgrading their smaller fleet to ensure that even with a small fleet, they have some sort of qualitative advantage.

Its funny, the only experts and militaries that are doing anything remotely similar to what you proposed, did it due to budget constraints and then are reconsidering their moves after ukraine...

 

[KaiserX]

It would have seemed so yes, but as PK said, that was only because Surveillance UAVs are easier to make and acquire. With Shahpar 2, TB2, WL2 and especially Akinci, such is no longer the case.


For now yes. Until local production is established.


T90S is significantly better protected than Arjun, and despite the reluctance of many on this forum, it’s also better protected from nearly every angle than the Al-Khalid or Al-Khalid-1. Only the VT4 surpasses the T90S in protection in the subcontinent.

That being said, the advantage in ammunition PA has had since the late 90s has basically made the T90S increased protection rather irrelevant.

India has not purchased modern MBTs yet, but when it decides to, it will have them in much greater numbers and much quicker than the PA, so it’s absolutely necessary to plan ahead.

Better protected? What a joke. The Ak series and chinese tanks havnt even been tested yet are compared to abysmal T-72 upgrades that has proven garbage since the first gulf war until todays ukraine war.

T90s armour protection isnt much different than the upgrade T72BVs used by the Russians. Both designs have significant issues with ammunition storage around the base of the turrent. Drop a small grenade on of the turrent and watch the whole tank explode. Or are you refering to the cheap russian ERA add ons as the best protection?

Add onthe T90s failed highly talked about laser jammers (ukraines laser jammers proved far more affective).

Lastly the T72/T90s abysmally slow reverse speed at 5-10km and you have a recipe for disaster

It would have seemed so yes, but as PK said, that was only because Surveillance UAVs are easier to make and acquire. With Shahpar 2, TB2, WL2 and especially Akinci, such is no longer the case.


For now yes. Until local production is established.


T90S is significantly better protected than Arjun, and despite the reluctance of many on this forum, it’s also better protected from nearly every angle than the Al-Khalid or Al-Khalid-1. Only the VT4 surpasses the T90S in protection in the subcontinent.

That being said, the advantage in ammunition PA has had since the late 90s has basically made the T90S increased protection rather irrelevant.

India has not purchased modern MBTs yet, but when it decides to, it will have them in much greater numbers and much quicker than the PA, so it’s absolutely necessary to plan ahead.

Better protected? What a joke. The Ak series and chinese tanks havnt even been tested yet are compared to abysmal T-72 upgrades that has proven garbage since the first gulf war until todays ukraine war.

T90s armour protection isnt much different than the upgrade T72BVs used by the Russians. Both designs have significant issues with ammunition storage around the base of the turrent. Drop a small grenade on of the turrent and watch the whole tank explode. Or are you refering to the cheap russian ERA add ons as the best protection?

Add on the T90s failed highly talked about laser jammers (ukraines laser jammers proved far more affective).

Lastly the T72/T90s abysmally slow reverse speed at 5-10km and you have a recipe for disaster

It would have seemed so yes, but as PK said, that was only because Surveillance UAVs are easier to make and acquire. With Shahpar 2, TB2, WL2 and especially Akinci, such is no longer the case.


For now yes. Until local production is established.


T90S is significantly better protected than Arjun, and despite the reluctance of many on this forum, it’s also better protected from nearly every angle than the Al-Khalid or Al-Khalid-1. Only the VT4 surpasses the T90S in protection in the subcontinent.

That being said, the advantage in ammunition PA has had since the late 90s has basically made the T90S increased protection rather irrelevant.

India has not purchased modern MBTs yet, but when it decides to, it will have them in much greater numbers and much quicker than the PA, so it’s absolutely necessary to plan ahead.

Better protected? What a joke. The Ak series and chinese tanks havnt even been tested yet are compared to abysmal T-72 upgrades that has proven garbage since the first gulf war until todays ukraine war.

T90s armour protection isnt much different than the upgrade T72BVs used by the Russians. Both designs have significant issues with ammunition storage around the base of the turrent. Drop a small grenade on of the turrent and watch the whole tank explode. Or are you refering to the cheap russian ERA add ons as the best protection?

Add on the T90s failed highly talked about laser jammers (ukraines laser jammers proved far more affective).

Lastly the T72/T90s abysmally slow reverse speed at 5-10km and you have a recipe for disaster

 

[Trango Towers]

"The forces with budget constrains?"

I knew you were going to bring the British up, funnily enough, the Brits are now considering a further expansion of the tank fleet due to lessons from Ukraine, the complete opposite of what you're proposing LOL

UK to consider whether it needs larger tank fleet

One hundred and forty-eight UK Challenger 2 main battle tanks are due to be upgraded to Challenger 3s.

www.forces.net

On top of that, as i mentioned before, the British decision was as a result of a tight budget, and even then, they were upgrading their smaller fleet to ensure that even with a small fleet, they have some sort of qualitative advantage.

Its funny, the only experts and militaries that are doing anything remotely similar to what you proposed, did it due to budget constraints and then are reconsidering their moves after ukraine...

So which country doesn't have budget constraints....Pakistan with its budget constraints should invest heavily in drones. Bang for buck drones make sense. Especially in modern rapid warfare.

Anyways have a nice day

 

[Princeps Senatus]

Ah, so BTA 4 and Sejjel are different after all. I do wonder however how well these new APFSDS perform against Kontakt-5, since I haven't seen BTA 4 or any other Chinese APFSDS for that matter being advertised as counter-ERA as some western ones have been.

the CITVs IA installed in its T90S

They have CITVs? I have never seen one with it.

 

[arslank03]

So which country doesn't have budget constraints....Pakistan with its budget constraints should invest heavily in drones. Bang for buck drones make sense. Especially in modern rapid warfare.

Anyways have a nice day

convineint you ignored everything else.

PS Pakistans budget is far better spent, therefore no, i wouldnt consider it constrained compared to the UK

 

[Trango Towers]

convineint you ignored everything else.

PS Pakistans budget is far better spent, therefore no, i wouldnt consider it constrained compared to the UK

Ignore what..
That you were spewing nonsense and stuck in the 3rd world thinking??


Bye bye..
I am not wasting time on you

 

[jhungary]

We've presented you with the facts. Many military experts will agree with me in this matter @jhungary @PanzerKiel

The tank is not obsolete. Rather, it is still the core of the battle space when used properly.

Tank is not obselete, because if that is true, then I can use the same argument and argue Infantry is now also obselete. Why spend hundreds of thousands of dollars (that's how much US spend on training a soldier, 250k for a regular soldier, up to 6 millions for SF) when you can get a cheap Mavic Drone for $1000 and put anti-personnel mine on them? Why not just disbanding the infantry crop?

If you have to move infantry in a battlefield, you will need to have armour, and when I say Armour, you don't just need tanks, you need IFV, APC, CFV, the whole lot. Because the alternative is for you to bum rush WW1 style.

Tanks are important to protect the flank of the infantry, and important to spearhead a counterattack, and important for dynamic defence. You cannot soften an enemy position with drone, you have to do that with tanks, because that gives you the direct fire advantage.

On the other hand, ever wonder while there are a lot of Ukraine drone footage destroying tank and there are few and far between on the other side? That's because drones have to be paired up with many ISTAR asset to be effective, if you are just a dude in the middle of battlefield launching a drone in a random direction, you aren't going to find anything, you need someone to tell you which area you want to scan with your drone, and what you are expecting. That's a lot of SIGINT, ELINT and SIGNINT as well as SATINT element involved. The reason why Ukraine can use their TB2 that effective is because someone, namely the US, is feeding them that intel, telling them where to strike and what to strike, because the US have a complete system monitoring battlefield, satellite, EC-135, compass call and so on, those asset provide real time information for the Ukrainian drone team, so they know what and where and how to look for Russian tank. It won't work like that if you don't have a complete ISTAR platform. And at this moment, only 2 countries in this world have the capability to do that. US and China, and even China can barely do it within a certain limit.

This is the same thing people saw footage of drone killing tank and think "Wow, that was easy" it's the same during Operation Desert Storm when we saw all those JDAM or any type of precision missile and projectile hitting target with pinpoint accuracy and declare Air Power is the king, thing is, most people don't know what had to be done to have that "Perfect" strike you saw on TV and thinking, that's easy, people in the know, like me, know inserting a SF team to lit up those target aren't easy, to maintain contact with said SF team aren't easy, to coordinate between interservice (Army-Navy or Army-Air Force) to make that strike is not easy, but yes, seeing a plane dropping ordinance and then target go boom is extremely easy. If you catch what I mean.

 

[Trango Towers]

Tank is not obselete, because if that is true, then I can use the same argument and argue Infantry is now also obselete. Why spend hundreds of thousands of dollars (that's how much US spend on training a soldier, 250k for a regular soldier, up to 6 millions for SF) when you can get a cheap Mavic Drone for $1000 and put anti-personnel mine on them? Why not just disbanding the infantry crop?

If you have to move infantry in a battlefield, you will need to have armour, and when I say Armour, you don't just need tanks, you need IFV, APC, CFV, the whole lot. Because the alternative is for you to bum rush WW1 style.

Tanks are important to protect the flank of the infantry, and important to spearhead a counterattack, and important for dynamic defence. You cannot soften an enemy position with drone, you have to do that with tanks, because that gives you the direct fire advantage.

On the other hand, ever wonder while there are a lot of Ukraine drone footage destroying tank and there are few and far between on the other side? That's because drones have to be paired up with many ISTAR asset to be effective, if you are just a dude in the middle of battlefield launching a drone in a random direction, you aren't going to find anything, you need someone to tell you which area you want to scan with your drone, and what you are expecting. That's a lot of SIGINT, ELINT and SIGNINT as well as SATINT element involved. The reason why Ukraine can use their TB2 that effective is because someone, namely the US, is feeding them that intel, telling them where to strike and what to strike, because the US have a complete system monitoring battlefield, satellite, EC-135, compass call and so on, those asset provide real time information for the Ukrainian drone team, so they know what and where and how to look for Russian tank. It won't work like that if you don't have a complete ISTAR platform. And at this moment, only 2 countries in this world have the capability to do that. US and China, and even China can barely do it within a certain limit.

This is the same thing people saw footage of Drone killing tank and think "Wow, that was easy" it's the same during Operation Desert Storm when we saw all those JDAM or any type of precision missile and projectile hitting target with pinpoint accuracy and declare Air Power is the king, thing is, most people don't know what had to be done to have that "Perfect" strike you saw on TV and thinking, that's easy, people in the know, like me, know inserting a SF team to lit up those target aren't easy, to maintain contact with said SF team aren't easy, to coordinate between interservice (Army-Navy or Army-Air Force) to make that strike is not easy, but yes, seeing a plane dropping ordinance and then target go boom is extremely easy. If you catch what I mean.

I never said tanks were obsolete @AlKardai . That's his perception. I cannot say anything about perception

 

[jhungary]

I never said tanks were obsolete @AlKardai . That's his perception. I cannot say anything about perception

I also did not just say why tank were obsolete, I have already mention how or why drone are effective and when they are not.

I mean, I accept the fact that everyone has their view, and this is mine.

 

[Jango]

By this time our Tank industry should have been self reliant. We should have had enough invested in R&D to not only produce for ourselves but also export to other 3rd world countries.

I don't know right now because been a while since I moved away from the field, but we are faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar behind in metallurgy, almost all aspects of it.