Pakistan Army Aviation Corps - Updated

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Too many. Too expensive. And it’s unlikely PA will get any sort of ToT with it sadly.
PA will likely order 30 in the first batch (or in total). Keep in mind they don’t just want one type.
Fennecs, Mi35M3s (possibly more on order), Z-10MEs and hopefully a future heavy gunship will bring the fleet close to a hundred.

The PAA's dedicated attack helicopter requirement is in the 60-75-range.

The bulk of those would be a 5-7-ton type (e.g. Z-10ME) and a few -- ideally -- a 9-10-ton type.

It's worth noting that the 60-75 range was around since the late 1980s. The PAA came up with that figure when it just inducted the AH-1S. However, through modern attack helicopters are substantially more capable (across range, payload, electronics), the PAA didn't reduce the required numbers. So, it wants major net-new improvements to its capabilities. Ideally, we'd find a way to re-life the AH-1F/S to keep them going for CT/COIN, while totally dedicating the new helicopters to anti-armour operations.

 

[Pandora]

Super Cobra = Strings Attached - no chance (2009-2015 people claimed it was being ordered)
T-129 = Engine , Strings Attached , Slow procurement

Z-10 = Abundant , Armed with Rockets , proper gunship - no strings attached we can easily get 100 units

Every thing comes with strings attached even Chinese.

 

[iLION12345_1]

The PAA's dedicated attack helicopter requirement is in the 60-75-range.

The bulk of those would be a 5-7-ton type (e.g. Z-10ME) and a few -- ideally -- a 9-10-ton type.

I would agree, the Armed Fennecs are part of the overall requirement too (which is why I was placing it near 100). PA does use them to cover and support armored formations along with AH-1s currently.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I would agree, the Armed Fennecs are part of the overall requirement too (which is why I was placing it near 100). PA does use them to cover and support armored formations along with AH-1s currently.

True.

But I wish we could've picked up a license to build a low-cost 1-2-ton helicopter. There was some momentum behind it back in the 1970s (there was a lot of interest in building stuff at Kamra at the time -- e.g., Mushshak, Saab 105, a fighter to replace the F-6, etc). With the emergence of ATGM and laser-guided rockets, these small beaters would've been really useful for close air support, special operations, recon/scouting, etc.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

As stated by @Bilal Khan (Quwa) , the gap has existed since 1980's

I remember reading stories when Pakistani Forces used to request Chinook Type multi purpose Helicopters and Also AWACs from USA but such force multipliers were always denied to Pakistan Military, these assets were still denied even during the WOT era.

If Gap existed 50-60 Units in 1980 you can imagine how much more the need is 40 years to present date

The chase behind the Super Cobra and T-129 , has cost considerable 13 year delay just from initial plans , possibilities and negotiations and then learning about no arrival or late arrivals or deliveries

Mean while across the border , Helicopters are manufactured on Supply Chain , Month/to Month gunships are being produced , even with basic design , these are loaded with Rockets and other heavy Ammunition

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

As stated by Bilal , the gap has existed since 1980's

I remember reading stories when Pakistani Forces used to request Chinook Type multi purpose Helicopters and Also AWACs from USA but such force multipliers were always denied to Pakistan Military

If Gap existed 50-60 Units in 1980 you can imagine how much more the need is 40 years to present date

The chase behind the Super Cobra and T-129 , has cost considerable 13 year delay just from initial plans , possibilities and negotiations and then learning about no arrival or late arrivals or deliveries

Mean while across the border , Helicopters are manufactured on Supply Chain , Month/to Month gunships are being produced , even with basic design , these are loaded with Rockets and other heavy Ammunition

Well in the 1980s, the requirement was for around 60 AH-1s. However, the current-gen helicopters (e.g., Z-10ME, T129, etc) are much more capable and sophisticated than the old Cobra. So, if the PAA's requirements were static, they would've limited the requirement to 30 T129/Z-10s. Instead, they're aiming for 60 such helicopters (thus accounting for the modern gap).

IMHO, the mistake wasn't chasing the AH-1Z or T129. Rather, the mistake was not copying India in designing (or at least pursuing) a common platform for both a 6-7-ton utility chopper and a 5-6-ton attack helicopter. Basically, the two helicopter types would have the same engines, transmission, rotors, and avionics. The Z-9/Z-19 or Rooivalk/Oryx were such options.

I understand the PAA has immediate requirements, but we can't keep putting out random fires with stopgaps or rapid off-the-shelf purchases. We need to think about long-term sustainability and scalability. The most valuable aspect of the JF-17 is that the PAF can add as many of those it wants as (no matter what) the JF-17 will always be the lowest-cost way to build credible air capabilities. The Army should have this type of solution for its helicopter requirements.

The T625 and T629 combination with TEI TS1400 is interesting:

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Today I think we can still bridge some gap , thru may be Italy or Europe , for Light Attack Category
Beside the Z-10 , option which again remains available to exercise

If China is operating 100+ of these , these must be of some quality

 

[sparten]

If we had negotiate, we could have gotten Z10 with ToT in 2015. Kamra would have been making them now.
Instead we got seduced by Vipers and T129.

 

[Moon]

If we had negotiate, we could have gotten Z10 with ToT in 2015. Kamra would have been making them now.
Instead we got seduced by Vipers and T129.

Nopes, Z-10 of then was not even half as capable as the one we're getting. It didn't perform up to our expectations either. Plus, our requirement does not justify ToT (even tho I wish it did).

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

T625 and T629 combination with TEI TS1400 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) indeed are good birds but I imagine the considerable first 50-70 deliveries would be for Turkish Armed forces so it will take 4-5 years before export orders are filled

We have not even shown any intention of purchasing (formally)

 

[Moon]

True.

But I wish we could've picked up a license to build a low-cost 1-2-ton helicopter. There was some momentum behind it back in the 1970s (there was a lot of interest in building stuff at Kamra at the time -- e.g., Mushshak, Saab 105, a fighter to replace the F-6, etc). With the emergence of ATGM and laser-guided rockets, these small beaters would've been really useful for close air support, special operations, recon/scouting, etc.

On a side note, can we reverse engineer the early gas turbines in the Alouettes? Imagine a decent sized fleet of something like the Gazelle, but with modern avionics and materials....

 

[CHI RULES]

The decision to not buy the Z10 was a mistake. Chasing the AH1Z and T129 cost us.

AH1Z though chances are narrow but still a possible option.

 

[CHI RULES]

As stated by @Bilal Khan (Quwa) , the gap has existed since 1980's

I remember reading stories when Pakistani Forces used to request Chinook Type multi purpose Helicopters and Also AWACs from USA but such force multipliers were always denied to Pakistan Military, these assets were still denied even during the WOT era.

If Gap existed 50-60 Units in 1980 you can imagine how much more the need is 40 years to present date

The chase behind the Super Cobra and T-129 , has cost considerable 13 year delay just from initial plans , possibilities and negotiations and then learning about no arrival or late arrivals or deliveries

Mean while across the border , Helicopters are manufactured on Supply Chain , Month/to Month gunships are being produced , even with basic design , these are loaded with Rockets and other heavy Ammunition

Though chances are minor yet one on one attack heli combat can't be ruled out in future wars espeecially in Indo Pak scenario, then ared drones in near future shall also be there. I have seen few videos few years back where Indian domestic attack helis were practicing with AAMs. On other hand so far no Pak attack heli so far is armed withh AAMs or they are preparing. The one to one heli combats already happened during Iran-Iraq war years back. So we need attack helis in large numbers with air waarfare capabilities.

 

[mingle]

True.

But I wish we could've picked up a license to build a low-cost 1-2-ton helicopter. There was some momentum behind it back in the 1970s (there was a lot of interest in building stuff at Kamra at the time -- e.g., Mushshak, Saab 105, a fighter to replace the F-6, etc). With the emergence of ATGM and laser-guided rockets, these small beaters would've been really useful for close air support, special operations, recon/scouting, etc.

MD530 is a good option I don't think US would have an issue can add in very good numbers since they are cheap

 

[Great Janjua]

Attack helicopters are best complemented by UAVs and loitering munition in a hotly SAM contested battleground of modern times, India is as off currently playing its cards right. Be it from local manufacturing of loitering munition in excess range of 180km or to attack helicopters alongside armed UAVs. It is seeing a rise in quality products, produced at home with little cost. now that's future-proofing.

This intermingling of such amazing platforms is sure to cause headaches for Pak armour.

For now, we have covered the first 2 vitals of the 3 drop magic potion. All we need is the last "loitering" drop, no pun intended.