Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions.

[Hassan Guy]

Ultimately, I think a better idea would be to consider developing a replacement to the JF-17 by using the expertise and technology from the Thunder and Project Azm. So, while Project Azm becomes our offensive/maritime asset (as it's a twin-engine design), we should have a next-gen lightweight fighter to replace the JF-17s.

In this case, you could perhaps re-open the JF-17's design so that it can take on Project Azm's engine as well as new electronics (e.g., radar, EW/ECM, avionics, etc). Or use the aircraft development expertise and technology of Azm to develop a clean sheet single engine fighter. So, use the same engine as Azm, but design the fighter around heavy composite use, relaxed stability, etc, while still keeping it relatively (for a NGF) simple and low-cost platform.

That or we go an entirely different direction by consolidating our entire manned fighter fleet on only Project Azm, and then complement it with UAVs (loyal wingman drones, stealthy attack UAVs, etc).

One would think that if Pakistan was to build a 5th gen fighter, they'd be looking to go single engine with an airframe with similar proportions to a jf-17/f-16. It would make sense from a pragmatic view to just reimplement the jf-17 into a new stealth airframe, sort of like the Russian 5th gen fighter. But since the Su-57 has seen some delays, I guess not?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

One would think that if Pakistan was to build a 5th gen fighter, they'd be looking to go single engine with an airframe with similar proportions to a jf-17/f-16. It would make sense from a pragmatic view to just reimplement the jf-17 into a new stealth airframe, sort of like the Russian 5th gen fighter. But since the Su-57 has seen some delays, I guess not?
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Theoretically, 'stealthi-fying' the JF-17 should be possible, at some level. Northrop did just that to the T-38 Talon through the Model 400. Unfortunately, we won't know how much of a performance improvement it is, but it was aimed at the USAF's next-gen LIFT requirements.

 

[araz]

One would think that if Pakistan was to build a 5th gen fighter, they'd be looking to go single engine with an airframe with similar proportions to a jf-17/f-16. It would make sense from a pragmatic view to just reimplement the jf-17 into a new stealth airframe, sort of like the Russian 5th gen fighter. But since the Su-57 has seen some delays, I guess not?
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We would need a power plant like the F35 engine to be able to get the performance we want out of a single engined 5th generation AC. I cannot recall any engine with a performance like that. It is therefore fair to assume that a single engined stealth fighter would be a waste of time in the PAC scenario and capabilities sphere. What we could have is a semi stealth lo observable fighter with recessed weapons and RAM coating and appropriate software as a work horse to go along with the Azm. Now whether PAF wants to use another fighter or accompanying drones is something I dont know. Howsoever we look at it we need an interim fighter before Azm comes along. What that might be is not clear.

A

 

[BoggedDown]

We would need a power plant like the F35 engine to be able to get the performance we want out of a single engined 5th generation AC. I cannot recall any engine with a performance like that. It is therefore fair to assume that a single engined stealth fighter would be a waste of time in the PAC scenario and capabilities sphere. What we could have is a semi stealth lo observable fighter with recessed weapons and RAM coating and appropriate software as a work horse to go along with the Azm. Now whether PAF wants to use another fighter or accompanying drones is something I dont know. Howsoever we look at it we need an interim fighter before Azm comes along. What that might be is not clear.

A

In my humble opinion AZM is just technical study to understand 5th generation aircraft. PAF does not have fund, technology or capability to build a 5th generation aircraft by itself. It either have to collaborate with China for joint development (meaning setting requirements and priorities and small enhancements here and there by integration some specific stuff from non chinese sources) and later inhouse manufacturing a la JF17 or buy a readymade aircraft from Turkey. So a medium weight single engine stealth fighter project with CAC is what PAF at best can have for a quantity of 100+ pieces. If Turkish TF-X project get successful in future, PAF may acquire 3-4 dozens to keep its touch with western aircrafts as replacements of F16s.

I think the most optimal for PAF would be a scale down in size and range of J20, a single engine (in the beginning WS10B or whatever the current engine of J20 and ultimately WS-15 when ready) medium weight stealth air superiority fighter with attack as secondary role, little bit bigger that current J10C or similar size but greater range. So you can think it as a hybrid of J10C and J20A, a scale up of J10C by adding stealth feature + internal weapons bay (4 BVR+2 WVR or 2 BVR + 2 AGM +2 WVR ) or a scale down J20A with a single engine, whichever option is easy. In my opinion CAC can build it quite easily with very short time and reasonable cost as all of the technologies already exists from J20A and J10C program, nothing much new need to be invented here. Of course as parameters changes it will be ground up as a new aircraft design, development and testing wise but all subcomponents should be reused with from existing programs as much as possible

 

[Talon]

After Tigers,Talons have also improved their tail art

 

[Haris Ali2140]

After Tigers,Talons have also improved their tail art

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Why don't we have full body skins???

 

[Silicon0000]

We would need a power plant like the F35 engine to be able to get the performance we want out of a single engined 5th generation AC. I cannot recall any engine with a performance like that. It is therefore fair to assume that a single engined stealth fighter would be a waste of time in the PAC scenario and capabilities sphere. What we could have is a semi stealth lo observable fighter with recessed weapons and RAM coating and appropriate software as a work horse to go along with the Azm. Now whether PAF wants to use another fighter or accompanying drones is something I dont know. Howsoever we look at it we need an interim fighter before Azm comes along. What that might be is not clear.

A

Don't you think going for development of another interim fighter will only increase the timeline of 5th gen Azm only. Personally I think we can develop Azm fighter right after JF17 block3 in same way JF17 is developed infact with better efficiency and more contribution.

AZM development timelines are mainly depends on Indian developments and it will be delayed till Indian seriously got a timeline for their 5th Gen. PAF has more of a reactive mindset (maybe because of many limitations) then the .......

 

[araz]

Don't you think going for development of another interim fighter will only increase the timeline of 5th gen Azm only. Personally I think we can develop Azm fighter right after JF17 block3 in same way JF17 is developed infact with better efficiency and more contribution.

AZM development timelines are mainly depends on Indian developments and it will be delayed till Indian seriously got a timeline for their 5th Gen. PAF has more of a reactive mindset (maybe because of many limitations) then the .......

The reason I write what I write is the need for 100 odd fighters which PAF needs to replace. We dont have the finances to buy anything in large enough numbers to fulfill this need. The next issue is the block building approach of the JFT. This effectively dictates that there will be a newer block/blocks if we need 100 fighters to replace.
I therefore posed myself the following questions for a logical solution to the problem.
A. Is the block 3 good enough that we dont need anything more from anywhere? (Possibly not being a light weight fighter)
B. If not what is the growth potential of the current design for future blocks?(million dollar question to which no one knows the answer and those that know aren't telling.)
C.Are the upgrades only going to be software upgrades or we will need to add more hardware?(possibly software as well as hardware)
D. What will be our needs in the next 10 years and how will we meet them?( more drones, more fighters?? Possibly twin engine fighter.
E. When do we envisage Azm coming on line? (Realistic answer 10 to 15 years).
So please look at the questions posed and try to answer them and see where you get to. It is a simple exercise in proactive thinking setting down criteria and then looking back at what the prospects are
Lookng at the JFT it has more or less served its purpose in the sense that it has kick started our aviation industry with a simple to manufacture and learn platform which is upgradeable. However moving on as we apply progressive levels of knowledge to our Azm project will we not want to try the newer concepts and designs and software out. If we want to do that what will be our platform?
Going by publically available information the Block 3 is the culmination of the JFT. Therefore moving forward the only logical sequence of events keeping our needs and demands in view I see further blocks of JFT being built along with changes progressively towards peri 5th gen platform(4++). I see the development of Azm to be ongoing all along as they have been now.
Regards
A

 

[Haris Ali2140]

The reason I write what I write is the need for 100 odd fighters which PAF needs to replace. We dont have the finances to buy anything in large enough numbers to fulfill this need. The next issue is the block building approach of the JFT. This effectively dictates that there will be a newer block/blocks if we need 100 fighters to replace.
I therefore posed myself the following questions for a logical solution to the problem.
A. Is the block 3 good enough that we dont need anything more from anywhere? (Possibly not being a light weight fighter)
B. If not what is the growth potential of the current design for future blocks?(million dollar question to which no one knows the answer and those that know aren't telling.)
C.Are the upgrades only going to be software upgrades or we will need to add more hardware?(possibly software as well as hardware)
D. What will be our needs in the next 10 years and how will we meet them?( more drones, more fighters?? Possibly twin engine fighter.
E. When do we envisage Azm coming on line? (Realistic answer 10 to 15 years).
So please look at the questions posed and try to answer them and see where you get to. It is a simple exercise in proactive thinking setting down criteria and then looking back at what the prospects are
Lookng at the JFT it has more or less served its purpose in the sense that it has kick started our aviation industry with a simple to manufacture and learn platform which is upgradeable. However moving on as we apply progressive levels of knowledge to our Azm project will we not want to try the newer concepts and designs and software out. If we want to do that what will be our platform?
Going by publically available information the Block 3 is the culmination of the JFT. Therefore moving forward the only logical sequence of events keeping our needs and demands in view I see further blocks of JFT being built along with changes progressively towards peri 5th gen platform(4++). I see the development of Azm to be ongoing all along as they have been now.
Regards
A

IMO we might see further blocks of JF-17 with structural changes. Technology has evolved a lot since the inception of its BLK 1. Now we can test structural changes using simulations using powerful processors. As @Quwa suggested that JF-17 can also serve as a test platform for the technologies which will be incorporated in AZM.

A major obstacle will be to finance the newer upgrades. This can be helped if we can commit other countries to the program by exports.

 

[SD 10]

At that moment, what will China or Pakistan have?

j31 or j20.

 

[LKJ86]

j31 or j20.

One thing for sure is that China would be equipped with a new figher jet from SAC.

 

[SD 10]

One thing for sure is that China would be equipped with a new figher jet from SAC.

i think by 2030 we well see a 6th generation chinese jet.

 

[Silicon0000]

The reason I write what I write is the need for 100 odd fighters which PAF needs to replace. We dont have the finances to buy anything in large enough numbers to fulfill this need. The next issue is the block building approach of the JFT. This effectively dictates that there will be a newer block/blocks if we need 100 fighters to replace.
I therefore posed myself the following questions for a logical solution to the problem.
A. Is the block 3 good enough that we dont need anything more from anywhere? (Possibly not being a light weight fighter)
B. If not what is the growth potential of the current design for future blocks?(million dollar question to which no one knows the answer and those that know aren't telling.)
C.Are the upgrades only going to be software upgrades or we will need to add more hardware?(possibly software as well as hardware)
D. What will be our needs in the next 10 years and how will we meet them?( more drones, more fighters?? Possibly twin engine fighter.
E. When do we envisage Azm coming on line? (Realistic answer 10 to 15 years).
So please look at the questions posed and try to answer them and see where you get to. It is a simple exercise in proactive thinking setting down criteria and then looking back at what the prospects are
Lookng at the JFT it has more or less served its purpose in the sense that it has kick started our aviation industry with a simple to manufacture and learn platform which is upgradeable. However moving on as we apply progressive levels of knowledge to our Azm project will we not want to try the newer concepts and designs and software out. If we want to do that what will be our platform?
Going by publically available information the Block 3 is the culmination of the JFT. Therefore moving forward the only logical sequence of events keeping our needs and demands in view I see further blocks of JFT being built along with changes progressively towards peri 5th gen platform(4++). I see the development of Azm to be ongoing all along as they have been now.
Regards
A

A ..... No. But better answer for me is to speed up AZM system development.

B & C ..... We are doing upgrades to 1960s vintage mirages ..... There will be lots of upgrades to JF17 platform (Both Software and Hardware). Newer block (more fighters) and upgrade both will need to be there. Azm should have different production lines.

D ..... Agree with you. Think Azm as AZM system, not only 5th gen fighter. Speed up is the only answer. JF17 model (starting with available mature tech and then incremental capability increase) is excellent in reducing timeline. Things should start coming out in 3-5 years with final product should be there in 8-10 years. we don't always need to be reactive to Indian developments. We need to be visionary and proactive.

And one more thing is that if I am not wrong (I could be as I am no technical person) stealth shaping with internal weapon bay is less difficult task then the other 5th gen goodies. Leaving only these 2 won't be a good thing and cause more waste of time.

I could be wrong but these are my views.

 

[LKJ86]

i think by 2030 we well see a 6th generation chinese jet.

The work for next generation engines and fighters has started.

The competition in the development of fighters between USA and China would be increased dramatically in near future.

 

[SD 10]

The work for next generation engines and fighters has started.

The competition in the development of fighters between USA and China would be increased dramatically in near future.

the two leading countries in aviation, Russia is out of the picture in this one!