Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions.

[StormBreaker]

As far as Turkey is concerned, the Hurjet is an alternative to the JF-17. Sure, it's on the lighter side, but its engine class is about as good as any other lightweight fighter.


Forget JF-17 Block-IV, if you really want to day dream, imagine a scenario where the PAF calls it a day on the JF-17 after the Block-III, and then switches to the Hurjet as its future low-cost platform (to work with the FGFA). In truth, the Hurjet is the Westernized lightweight fighter the PAF dreamed of in the late 1980s.

Although, i would be very much interested to see PAF deciding up on 5th Gen trainer should it be off the shelf or self developed.

Either Hondu L-15 or a JF-17B2 (new variant of B) with 5th gen cockpit, sensor fusion, technologies. We will have 5th gen systems (except for stealth), by 2026-27, practice on it, gain experience, learn by it to further modify AZM’s systems and aspects and when AZM is inducted, we will be in a much experienced position to use it in combats sooner instead of waiting for AZM the waiting another 5-7 years for being ready to use it in battlefield through rigorous practice.
We have China which is already fielding multiple 5th gen platforms so we can use this card to get as much 5th gen on thunder trainers as possible except for stealth so that AZM can become a true 5+/6th gen while our pilots are already 5th gen experienced without actually possessing any 5th gen platforms in our air force.

Secondly, no sane person/Air force would use Stealth fighters for heavy training similar to how we directly jump our pilots to thunders post CCS. Operating stealth aircrafts comes with almost double maintenance cost compared to our current costs so it would be wise to get some good trainers which are also best to use for combat and low cost, so an upgraded Block B thunder with 5th Gen elements should definitely come post Block 3 or if Block 4 arrives.

The baseline Hurjet will use an engine as powerful as (and more efficient than) the RD-93. It will have a payload of 3,000 kg and max altitude of 45,000 ft. There's nothing (besides time and money) stopping the Turks from working the design up even further to come up with a Gripen/Tejas-class fighter (it's mostly there already).

As for 'advanced systems,' the Turks will load the Hurjet with their own AESA radar, integrated EW/ECM suite, and HMD/S (from TF-X), plus their own bevy of indigenous AAMs, SOWs, AShM, PGBs, LGB, EW pod, etc. And never mind the other attributes, e.g., relaxed stability, heavier use of composite materials, etc.

I am glad, they are doing such. Do they have any plans to modify the design heavily so as to make it look more like a fighter, and sink in the cockpit lower ?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

When will Hurjet be ready?

They're aiming to fly it in 2022/2023.

 

[LKJ86]

They're aiming to fly it in 2022/2023.

I mean when it will be in service?

 

[Goku]

They're aiming to fly it in 2022/2023.

First prototype , u mean??

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Although, i would be very much interested to see PAF deciding up on 5th Gen trainer should it be off the shelf or self developed.

Either Hondu L-15 or a JF-17B2 (new variant of B) with 5th gen cockpit, sensor fusion, technologies. We will have 5th gen systems (except for stealth), by 2026-27, practice on it, gain experience, learn by it to further modify AZM’s systems and aspects and when AZM is inducted, we will be in a much experienced position to use it in combats sooner instead of waiting for AZM the waiting another 5-7 years for being ready to use it in battlefield through rigorous practice.
We have China which is already fielding multiple 5th gen platforms so we can use this card to get as much 5th gen on thunder trainers as possible except for stealth so that AZM can become a true 5+/6th gen while our pilots are already 5th gen experienced without actually possessing any 5th gen platforms in our air force.

Secondly, no sane person/Air force would use Stealth fighters for heavy training similar to how we directly jump our pilots to thunders post CCS. Operating stealth aircrafts comes with almost double maintenance cost compared to our current costs so it would be wise to get some good trainers which are also best to use for combat and low cost, so an upgraded Block B thunder with 5th Gen elements should definitely come post Block 3 or if Block 4 arrives.


I am glad, they are doing such. Do they have any plans to modify the design heavily so as to make it look more like a fighter, and sink in the cockpit lower ?

The first crop of FGFA/AZM pilots will probably be ex-F-16/JF-17/Mirage operators, and they'll probably train on simulators. In fact, I think FGFAs in the PAF would likely be a capstone for experienced pilots, especially as AZM would probably spearhead the PAF's offensive edge in the future (for which flawless execution is key).

First prototype , u mean??

Yep.

I mean when it will be in service?

Realistically, I'm guessing late 2020s or early 2030s.

 

[LKJ86]

Realistically, I'm guessing late 2020s or early 2030s.

At that moment, what will China or Pakistan have?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

At that moment, what will China or Pakistan have?

JF-17 Block-IV or V if we're lucky

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

JF-17 Block-IV or V if we're lucky

So Hurjet will be a 4.5 gen jet ryt? Why would Pakistan want Hurjet when we can have J10Cs?

 

[araz]

The baseline Hurjet will use an engine as powerful as (and more efficient than) the RD-93. It will have a payload of 3,000 kg and max altitude of 45,000 ft. There's nothing (besides time and money) stopping the Turks from working the design up even further to come up with a Gripen/Tejas-class fighter (it's mostly there already).

As for 'advanced systems,' the Turks will load the Hurjet with their own AESA radar, integrated EW/ECM suite, and HMD/S (from TF-X), plus their own bevy of indigenous AAMs, SOWs, AShM, PGBs, LGB, EW pod, etc. And never mind the other attributes, e.g., relaxed stability, heavier use of composite materials, etc.

I understand where you are coming from but the Hurjet is a cooked project in which PAF will have little or no input. I dont like the idea of PAC losing its skill set to a Turkish project. We will either have a joint ccollaboration on JFT in which case the Turkish skill dset will further augment what has been gained by PAF/PAC.
A

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I understand where you are coming from but the Hurjet is a cooked project in which PAF will have little or no input. I dont like the idea of PAC losing its skill set to a Turkish project. We will either have a joint ccollaboration on JFT in which case the Turkish skill dset will further augment what has been gained by PAF/PAC.
A

Ultimately, I think a better idea would be to consider developing a replacement to the JF-17 by using the expertise and technology from the Thunder and Project Azm. So, while Project Azm becomes our offensive/maritime asset (as it's a twin-engine design), we should have a next-gen lightweight fighter to replace the JF-17s.

In this case, you could perhaps re-open the JF-17's design so that it can take on Project Azm's engine as well as new electronics (e.g., radar, EW/ECM, avionics, etc). Or use the aircraft development expertise and technology of Azm to develop a clean sheet single engine fighter. So, use the same engine as Azm, but design the fighter around heavy composite use, relaxed stability, etc, while still keeping it relatively (for a NGF) simple and low-cost platform.

That or we go an entirely different direction by consolidating our entire manned fighter fleet on only Project Azm, and then complement it with UAVs (loyal wingman drones, stealthy attack UAVs, etc).

 

[LKJ86]

JF-17 Block-IV or V if we're lucky

China would have already stopped the production of 4th-generation fighters (like J-10 or J-16) at that moment, and maybe J-20 equipped with WS-15 engines has been allowed to be exported.

 

[araz]

Ultimately, I think a better idea would be to consider developing a replacement to the JF-17 by using the expertise and technology from the Thunder and Project Azm. So, while Project Azm becomes our offensive/maritime asset (as it's a twin-engine design), we should have a next-gen lightweight fighter to replace the JF-17s.

In this case, you could perhaps re-open the JF-17's design so that it can take on Project Azm's engine as well as new electronics (e.g., radar, EW/ECM, avionics, etc). Or use the aircraft development expertise and technology of Azm to develop a clean sheet single engine fighter. So, use the same engine as Azm, but design the fighter around heavy composite use, relaxed stability, etc, while still keeping it relatively (for a NGF) simple and low-cost platform.

That or we go an entirely different direction by consolidating our entire manned fighter fleet on only Project Azm, and then complement it with UAVs (loyal wingman drones, stealthy attack UAVs, etc).

Would that not depend on what is available from our friends and what our requirements are? I would also like to know what the AM meant when he said "JFT air frame will reach maturity after Block 3". Does it mean there is no further potential to develop the platform further? or that this was what PAF envisaged the JFT to be when they started out in the late 90s.
SO this question once answered will then lead to where we go and what the demands of modern day war in the subcontinent are?. For instance if we dont think that Azm will come on line by 30 to 35 then do we buy something akin to J31/20 in 3 squadron strength to negate any advantage the rafale will bring to the IAF? If not then do we open the design of JFT and look at producing JF18 ?
I think the later seems like a waste of money and effort as irrespective it will not give PAF any outstanding advantage to the PAF. We need to also discuss what will be the utility of such a fighter in 2035 onwards when 5th gen planes are flying around on both sides and we are looking at 6th generation platforms.
The future is very vague as a lot of background is not available to me at least. Interim buys if at all occur may well be of more 16s for MLU.
A

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Ultimately, I think a better idea would be to consider developing a replacement to the JF-17 by using the expertise and technology from the Thunder and Project Azm. So, while Project Azm becomes our offensive/maritime asset (as it's a twin-engine design), we should have a next-gen lightweight fighter to replace the JF-17s.

In this case, you could perhaps re-open the JF-17's design so that it can take on Project Azm's engine as well as new electronics (e.g., radar, EW/ECM, avionics, etc). Or use the aircraft development expertise and technology of Azm to develop a clean sheet single engine fighter. So, use the same engine as Azm, but design the fighter around heavy composite use, relaxed stability, etc, while still keeping it relatively (for a NGF) simple and low-cost platform.

That or we go an entirely different direction by consolidating our entire manned fighter fleet on only Project Azm, and then complement it with UAVs (loyal wingman drones, stealthy attack UAVs, etc).

Would Hurjet be a 5th gen light weight fighter?

 

[LKJ86]

Would Hurjet be a 5th gen light weight fighter?

What???

Is there enough room inside a lightweight fighter for weapon bays?

 

[StormBreaker]

What???

Is there enough room inside a lightweight fighter for weapon bays?

That’s the reason why there couldn’t be any light weight 5th gen Fighter