Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions.

[araz]

Sir, what is radar range of F7PG, the latest version of F7 in use by Bangaldesh Air Force has reportedly radar range only up to 80 KM so it can't fully utilize BVR capability of SD10.


Sir in aggressive role one should expect more losses as compared to defensive one.

Can any one explain how many squadrons of F7s are still operational as in the past it is mentioned that all F7s have been retired from active duty except for training purposes meanwhile F7PGs are active.

Sir what is radar range against Air targets of F7PG.

Pg radar is Grifo S7 with a rangeof around50 kms from open source literature.
A

 

[hassan1]

 

[Armchair]

Not sure if the sd10 has that facility

It would be ridiculous if it didn't. Bvr missiles in modern combat is guided very often by off board sensors.
These are important considerations because if we act dumb about it we won't be able to effectively utilise the f7s in combat. Something they need to be given the present situation. If war breaks out, f7s armed with sd10as or pl15s, datalinked to awacs can play a very useful role.

But if we become nihilistic and keep discussing the range of the radar in the f7s it would just be a case of "stupid is what stupid does"

 

[Tank131]

So the original F-7M had a british sky ranger radar which had a range of 15km. These were upgraded to the F-7MP also known in PAF as the F-7P with the FIAR (now leonardo/selex) Grifo-7. This radar has a range of 55km and these gave the ability to fire the Aim-9L. The Grifo 7 was then replaced by the Grifo 7 mk II which increased then scan angles by +/- 20 degrees. In the PGs there is the FIAR Grifo MG radar which also has 55km range but +/- 30 degrees and better ecm/eccm and reportedly a range of 60km.

With respect to BVR from them, its certainly a possibility but that would require sd-10 codes again be handed over to Italy for integration. The Grifo is afterall an Italian and not Chinese FCR. That is never going to happen. Ideally if you wanted to make them BVR capable you would have gone for something like Sparrow, MICA or even R-darter (i doubt PAF will be allowed or want to put AMRAAM on it). But the SD-10 is NOT going to happen.

As far as sd-10 being able to be targeted and guided by AWAC to take full use of the range, it is possible with datalinks which i am very sure exist between SD-10 and ZDKs, but again the F-7s cant really host tge missile per se.

 

[denel]

So the original F-7M had a british sky ranger radar which had a range of 15km. These were upgraded to the F-7MP also known in PAF as the F-7P with the FIAR (now leonardo/selex) Grifo-7. This radar has a range of 55km and these gave the ability to fire the Aim-9L. The Grifo 7 was then replaced by the Grifo 7 mk II which increased then scan angles by +/- 20 degrees. In the PGs there is the FIAR Grifo MG radar which also has 55km range but +/- 30 degrees and better ecm/eccm and reportedly a range of 60km.

With respect to BVR from them, its certainly a possibility but that would require sd-10 codes again be handed over to Italy for integration. The Grifo is afterall an Italian and not Chinese FCR. That is never going to happen. Ideally if you wanted to make them BVR capable you would have gone for something like Sparrow, MICA or even R-darter (i doubt PAF will be allowed or want to put AMRAAM on it). But the SD-10 is NOT going to happen.

As far as sd-10 being able to be targeted and guided by AWAC to take full use of the range, it is possible with datalinks which i am very sure exist between SD-10 and ZDKs, but again the F-7s cant really host tge missile per se.

correction, AIM-9 series is heat seaking and does not require radar

 

[Tank131]

correction, AIM-9 series is heat seaking and does not require radar

That is only partially true. While you can use the weapon without a radar, the seeker of the missile is the one finding the target. That means the seeker searches the sky, essentially looking for a bright/hot target to go chase and when it gets tone, you fire. A fire control radar mated to the missile (which requires integration of the weapon and the fire control radar like there was between Grifo 7 and AIM-9 ) speeds up the process. Essentially the FCR finds the target and in conjunction with the NAS essentially tells the IR missile where to look (in order to quickly find the target and get tone). I know you are probably aware of this but for other members who may not understand the how the entire system works i dug this up. Its a good read.

https://migflug.com/jetflights/how-fighter-jets-target-and-lock-on-enemy-jets/

https://www.quora.com/How-is-a-missile-fired-from-a-fighter-jet-How-does-it-function-exactly

 

[araz]

That is only partially true. While you can use the weapon without a radar, the seeker of the missile is the one finding the target. That means the seeker searches the sky, essentially looking for a bright/hot target to go chase and when it gets tone, you fire. A fire control radar mated to the missile (which requires integration of the weapon and the fire control radar like there was between Grifo 7 and AIM-9 ) speeds up the process. Essentially the FCR finds the target and in conjunction with the NAS essentially tells the IR missile where to look (in order to quickly find the target and get tone). I know you are probably aware of this but for other members who may not understand the how the entire system works i dug this up. Its a good read.

https://migflug.com/jetflights/how-fighter-jets-target-and-lock-on-enemy-jets/

https://www.quora.com/How-is-a-missile-fired-from-a-fighter-jet-How-does-it-function-exactly

Is it not true that PAC Kamra was assembling these radars in house. If so they would have gotten the radar source codes.SD10A are already in PAF and integrated with JFT. If hte integration is done in houseI dont think the Chinese would have any objection to releasing the codes for SD10A for PAF.
On that basis I say we MAY have integration of SD10A on the pgs

 

[PakShaheen79]

Is it not true that PAC Kamra was assembling these radars in house. If so they would have gotten the radar source codes.SD10A are already in PAF and integrated with JFT. If hte integration is done in houseI dont think the Chinese would have any objection to releasing the codes for SD10A for PAF.
On that basis I say we MAY have integration of SD10A on the pgs

I think it is true what you are saying but the firmware which controls the hardware comes in assembled/compiled form as a chip or software to be installed. (Like a BIOS software) ... unless we have source code of that software in its native programming language and minds able to alter that code, integration of SD-10 on PGs would remain a distinct dream. But I like that idea that why don't we look for a compatible missile instead from a European source.

 

[araz]

I think it is true what you are saying but the firmware which controls the hardware comes in assembled/compiled form as a chip or software to be installed. (Like a BIOS software) ... unless we have source code of that software in its native programming language and minds able to alter that code, integration of SD-10 on PGs would remain a distinct dream. But I like that idea that why don't we look for a compatible missile instead from a European source.

If grifo 7 was being produced in PAC I think they will have the source codes of the system. It is not cutting edge tech anymore and Leonardo would release the source codes. Paklands have many little gems sitting in quiet cubby holes that can work wonders given half a chance. So I think it is likely to have happened. However like you I have no confirmation of this one way or another.
A

 

[hassan1]

 

[Blueskiez 2001]

any news about the Egyptian Mirages?

 

[messiach]

Good. CKKB-XX firmware controls the embedded kernel. This is replaceable with native firmware written in C. There is no such thing as codes or source codes or pin codes or key switches. @araz

I think it is true what you are saying but the firmware which controls the hardware comes in assembled/compiled form as a chip or software to be installed. (Like a BIOS software) ... unless we have source code of that software in its native programming language and minds able to alter that code, integration of SD-10 on PGs would remain a distinct dream. But I like that idea that why don't we look for a compatible missile instead from a European source.

 

[Dil Pakistan]

Good. CKKB-XX firmware controls the embedded kernel. This is replaceable with native firmware written in C. There is no such thing as codes or source codes or pin codes or key switches. @araz

or a "Kill Switch" ??

 

[Tank131]

Good. CKKB-XX firmware controls the embedded kernel. This is replaceable with native firmware written in C. There is no such thing as codes or source codes or pin codes or key switches. @araz

I think then the integration of SD-10A should be possible. In the Indo-Pak theater though, with such close proximity and with the plan for over 150 JF-17 and over 75 F-16, im not sure it is worth it for F-7 which is on its way out. That being said there are dual ejector racks for Mig-21bis wvr missile and i have seen load outs of 4 wvr missiles and 2 bvr missiles with 1 large centerline fuel tank so in such a configuration, 2 sd-10 and 2-4 aim-9/pl5s could be doable, albeit it would have almost no legs to stay in a fight. Even if all that was doable, lets look how the super dooper Mig-21bis (which for all intents and purposes is similar to F-7PG with somewhat better EW capabilities) did against F-16. It was trounced before even firing a single missile. Not sure of the viability in pitched battles against mki, m2k, or rafale. It is fine in the current loading for dealing with point defense against strike packages so why exert the effort for SD-10? Your thoughts?

 

[syed_yusuf]

Why is paf not going not going into aggressive posture and attacking across loc