Pakistan Air Force — new challenges

[ejaz007]

Indian Air Force aims at air supremacy in 10 years

* IAF chief says air force being modernised in all fields
* Says force seeking space, cyberspace domination

By Iftikhar Gilani

NEW DELHI: The Indian Air Force (IAF) is in the midst of a transformation and is taking some ‘confident steps forward’ in becoming an aerospace power 10 years from now, IAF chief Fali Homi Major said on Wednesday.

Visualising a future where the IAF would project aerospace power credibly within its zone of influence, Major said they would do it with “precision, speed, and high intensity, against a variety of objectives, by seamlessly integrating all assets to achieve very compressed decision cycles”.

Modernisation: He said IAF was in the process of modernising all the airfields, upgrading maintenance and repair facilities, and modernising logistics management. Major said flight trials of six contenders for the 126 multi-role medium-combat aircraft tenders, which were currently going through technical evaluation, should commence next year, and the Airborne Warning and Control System would also arrive from Israel around the same time. He also confirmed that the C-130J Hercules for Special Forces operations would operate within a couple of years. The IAF is also switching to a modern communication system – the Air Force Network (AFNET).

He said other new acquisitions would include medium, light and attack helicopters, various types of radars, advanced jet trainer ‘Hawks’, Boeing business jets for VIP travel, and surface-to-air missiles for beefing up air defence capabilities. All these assets would then be integrated through the Integrated Air Command and Control System for operational data link, and AFNET for command and control centres.

Domination: “We seek to harness the capabilities of space and cyberspace to dominate the information domain and increase transparency for better situational awareness,” he said. “We are not importing any foreign technology for the new AFNET, but are doing it indigenously. Work is being carried out on an optic fibre technology and simultaneously through satellite,” IAF Maintenance Command Air Officer Air Marshal Gautam Nayyar told reporters.

All maintenance work carried out on fighter aircraft at base repair depots will be through e-documentation, and data like the age of aircraft, replacement of oil and particular components, history of accidents and safety record will be transmitted to depots when the aircraft is sent there, Nayyar said.


Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

 

[fatman17]

^^^good luck to them!

 

[muse]

Just my 2 cents - The challenges not just to PAF but to the entire security set up in Pakistan is that it no longer faces just the Indian - in fact, the Indian is a distant challenge, for the most part the Indian has overwhelmed the Pakistani security setup because the pakistani economy cannot compete.

Increasingly Pakistan are faced with a multitude of state actors, a "coalition" if you will - for more than 4 decades Pakistan has sought a balance between international powers, and the international community has more or less accorded Pakistan that fig leaf - increasingly it is not willing to do so and that means the security challenge is increased exponentially.

Can or does Pakistani establishment have the will to muster a credible deterence to these new challenges? Little evidence esists to demonstrate that it has will to do so, even if the Pakistani economy could allow it to do so.

So, I see a rather bleak outlook for not just PAF but the entire security set up of Pakistan - Pakistan are used to "limping along", that means they are less than credible as anything other than a nuissance, unless, of course, Pakistan decide to play a very different game, focus on their economy to make that economy a global player - lets face it, even if, the Indian was the only challenege, it still would require that the Pakistani economy be a global player.

 

[MastanKhan]

Muse,

Thanks for your comments. Pakistan had a great oppurtunity right after u s went into afghanistan and Bin Laden was on the run. Pakistan should have neutralized him then and there and totally wiped out his entourage----but stupidity prevailed---instead of going all out----there were arrests being made for the U S tv consumption and for the showmanship to the high ranking officials coming into pakistan---the pakistanis were not able to swallow the imortance that was granted to them after 9/11---at last immaturity in dealing with world powers and other nations started showing up.

The importance of time was not evident in the dealings that the pakistanis were making with others----I guess they didnot know to strike it hard when the iron is hot anology---get it now---finish the task now---. Seemed like there was a mindset in the admin that we will get him when we need to or when we want to----. Now the others want to come to our backyard and are trying to find him without informing us.

The su 30 deployment is an open challenge to all and sundry in the PAF---the only good that has come out of this is that the pakistani govt i.e., the prime minister has not commented on it---at least I have not heard about it---if you don't acknowledge it---maybe the threat might subside---let us downplay it mentality.

FATMAN----their good luck is a bad omen for us----until and unless PAF pulls a rabbit out of the hat----things look real bleak at this moment.

 

[fatman17]

Muse,

Thanks for your comments. Pakistan had a great oppurtunity right after u s went into afghanistan and Bin Laden was on the run. Pakistan should have neutralized him then and there and totally wiped out his entourage----but stupidity prevailed---instead of going all out----there were arrests being made for the U S tv consumption and for the showmanship to the high ranking officials coming into pakistan---the pakistanis were not able to swallow the imortance that was granted to them after 9/11---at last immaturity in dealing with world powers and other nations started showing up.

The importance of time was not evident in the dealings that the pakistanis were making with others----I guess they didnot know to strike it hard when the iron is hot anology---get it now---finish the task now---. Seemed like there was a mindset in the admin that we will get him when we need to or when we want to----. Now the others want to come to our backyard and are trying to find him without informing us.

The su 30 deployment is an open challenge to all and sundry in the PAF---the only good that has come out of this is that the pakistani govt i.e., the prime minister has not commented on it---at least I have not heard about it---if you don't acknowledge it---maybe the threat might subside---let us downplay it mentality.

FATMAN----their good luck is a bad omen for us----until and unless PAF pulls a rabbit out of the hat----things look real bleak at this moment.

i appreciate your opinion but i tend to not agree. all is not lost as portrayed by the western media (esp in the US & UK) and i can understand your perception. with due respect it is very easy to critique (in hindsight).

even now the economy is still projected to grow between 4.5 to 5%, not spectacular but not in recession either. the FX rate is a concern but it is also a blessing in disguise e.g: out textile business / exports become very competitive. food inflation is another concern, but with the Grace of God we've had a bumper rice crop with potential of exports worth ~2B US. the wheat support price has increased to motivate farmers to grow more. my point is simple - it can all be managed - we cannot cry over the past (read mistakes) and look to the future and decide what we can do ourselves. tighten the spending belt (both economically and militarily). since india is not a threat as muse suggests we can defer some military programs but not the critical ones.(read PAF)

the IAF is a challenge and the PAF is taking steps in the right direction.(there is enough news in the aviation segment to back this claim). on the issue of others now coming over to find OBL because we didnt or couldnt, in fact it is the same for them. the west decided to attack iraq and let afghanistan simmer till another day and now it is out-of-their-control-also.
God forbid...challenging the pak armed forces is not the same as the attack on the republican guards of iraq and believe me the new Centcom chief Gen. petraeus knows that all too well.
muse is correct we need to move from a warrior state mentality to a more balanced approach led by a business state of mind (read economy). we cannot be a global economic power but have the potential to be a major player in our area of influence.
finally we need the democratic process to mature. we may or may not like the people in power but we should support the process. i am so happy to hear the comments people are making in the streets regarding Gen. Kiyani. he is a true professional (soldier and statesman). ps: we know who to thank!!

 

[muse]

Point towards a future which is characterized as bleak is not the same as suggesting that PAF is not acting to rise to the challenege or that all is lost -- lets be fair, where the Indian is in to Air supremacy and Dominance, Pakistani is left to "other" options. It has been so for the history of Pakistan, but it is unfair and unwise to think that populations will bear such burdens for long.

IAF is not the major Challenge. PAF, the FAUJ and the Bahriya are not the Republican Guard - but I would bring to your attention that in Majlis (parliament) briefings the DG ISI made it clear that after more than two months of action, the talib still control Swat district -- in other words a single district, one single district, the fauj has not been able to win, from freakin Talib - and we would talk trash to vast imperial armies, airforces and navies????

Martial pride ought not be equated with bravado. martial pride is based on real, sustained capablity, bravado with foolhardiness.

The kinds of challenges Pakistan faces, requires not off the shelf platforms, but a economic behemoth sustained by a educated disciplined industrial economy - it's not the platform, but the small sub systems that enable performance. It is not China's defence, nor US nor anybody other than Pakistan and if we do not have the will, lets not challenege.

Mr. Musharraf took the economy to double it's size and suggested that IF things continued as they had, we could double the economy every 7 years for the next 20 - but alas, Pakistan's politicians would not have any of that.

Today, we cannot stop UAV's and if God forbid the coalition decides "to do" Waziristan, we would do exactly what?? We cannot even retake a district in pakistan proper nor stop an insurgency in Balouchistan??. that the pakistani "has no clothes" is evident not just to the coalition but to former non-players such as Afghanistan.

If one cannot be enthusiastic about our ability to rise to a challenege, it must not be seen as anything but sad and sobering - but the time for sobriety is also at an end.

We now choose to disregard threats and challeneges for fear that we may have to respond - and we know our abilty to respond is "limited", worse still our population exhibits war weariness - our adversaries are waiting us out, they are informed by the idea that it is a ******* apple and will fall by it's own accord - perhaps they are wrong - about it falling on it's own accord, anyway.

A PAF that operates 700-1000 fighter bombers is of what use when the economy does not allow for the latest technology, we would be sacrificing young, brave pilots if we do not give them the absolute best there is. When growth is fed by injections of aid - can or will our strategic alliance withstand such pressure? Will our allies not be asking if we are a net asset or a liability?? Has it escaped anyone's attention that our starategic ally does more than US$60 Billion in annual business with our adversary and we do not do even US% billion?? Do these figures not hold a forboding eventuality??

Chalta hai simply cannot do - all I am sugesting is that we get serious or we realign, and the latter is doable, not that it is good or right.

 

[fatman17]

thanks muse, very enlightning. and pray tell me what i have said in my post? i have just pointed out some facts to everyone that all is not lost - we need to manage ourselves - and agreed with you that we need economic strength first and military second.

and pray tell me what military industrial strenght does our neighbour possess - every weapons system purchased off the shelf from the US, Russia and others.

and what is this chalta hai business...

getting all emotional is one thing, getting real is another!

 

[muse]

i appreciate your opinion but i tend to not agree

This necessitated the reponse. to help clarify the position.

Our challenges are not limited to our neighbor - It is precisely this focus on the neighbor, in seeking to maintain parity with it that has result in the challenges being increased exponentially; Pakistan is not confined to it's subcontinental cage anymore.

Pakistan are now out paced, it could not be otherwise - the neighboring adversary is 10 ten times larger, always has been. And of course our political problems, what can one say about our political problems other than offer lament.

The point you have missed is that our ability to challenege is "negligible" now and given the political dispensation, we might get used to a "realignment" -- this realignment has already begun - Occupied Kashmiri are terrorists, an Indo-Afghan trade corridor is now a given, the neighbor adversary now position high performance aircraft at our door step, our response is ....

See, I am suggesting something I do not think you are following - we do not have the will nor an infrastructure for a sustained challenege -- and therefore the question, ought we persist? What is it that the neighbor adversary has not won without war that it seeks to win in war with us??

You read me wrong, I am not a proponent of this weakness, but I am question whether allocating more resources after a goal we are not in a position to achieve, nor have the will to achieve, is the way to proceed.

I want you to compare the behaviour of the state, media and populace to the challenege of insurrgency in India and Pakistan - India demonstrated the will to flood occupied kashmir with arms and men, it fenced the border, it's diplomacy identified pakistan with militancy and effectively isolated Pakistan - compare the Pakistani response to insurrgency - compare the response of the populace, the media.

All right these are most bitter truths, yet without the admission that something is terribly even fatally wrong, we are not going anywhere close to seeking answers for our predicament. My intent was not to cause injury but express misgivings with regard to framework within which we fashion our response.

 

[fatman17]

you say this in so my words i said it in a few!

muse is correct we need to move from a warrior state mentality to a more balanced approach led by a business state of mind (read economy).

and to do this we need to do what u r saying!

bitter truths i am more than aware!

we cannot cry over the past (read mistakes) and look to the future and decide what we can do ourselves

 

[fatman17]

posted this in the WoT segment but maybe it needs to be posted here
swat ops were stop and go under musharraf (mistake), Bajaur ops are succeeding with a sustained effort.
DG ISI mentioned Swat bcuz we have to go back there after bajaur is secured!


ASIA PACIFIC
Date Posted: 02-Oct-2008

Jane's Defence Weekly

Pakistan army captures Taliban base

Farhan Bokhari JDW Correspondent - Islamabad

Pakistan has destroyed one of the Taliban's few major strongholds in the remote Bajaur region along the Afghan border, the military claimed at a briefing on 29 September.

A senior Pakistani security official described the Bajaur facility as one of the Taliban's key operational headquarters.

Images of the destroyed, mainly underground structures shown during the briefing - which was attended by select news organisations including Jane's - revealed an elaborate network of tunnels and rooms used for planning operations and storing weapons and ammunition.

Western military officials hailed the operation as being precisely the kind of action they wanted to see from Pakistan in its tribal areas.

"What we found could easily be characterised as equivalent to an operational HQ of any military," a senior Pakistani security official told Jane's . Pakistani troops also found manuals and other written material that appeared to have been used for training militants.

The capture of the Bajaur base was "a significant achievement", according to one Western official, because it was the first time that the Pakistani military had seized a facility known to have been used by high-profile militants.

The operation also came at an opportune time for Pakistan: just when the country is battling mounting Western criticism over its failure to do more in clamping down on Al-Qaeda and the Taliban.

Such successes could also help Pakistan to persuade the US to end its tactic of using unmanned aerial vehicles to attack militant targets on Pakistani soil: an approach that has hardened public opinion against the US-led 'war on terror'.

However, local Pakistani security officials accused the US of conducting another UAV attack inside Pakistan in the early hours of 1 October, when up to eight foreign militants were reported killed in an attack on a house in North Waziristan. This followed a statement released by the US State Department the day before asserting "its support for Pakistan's sovereignty, independence, unity and territorial integrity".

© 2008 Jane's Information Group

 

[fatman17]

good for u - venom

 

[IceCold]

the current strength of indian air force is.----

aircraft

80-SU-30MKI [ total 230 will b inducted till 2012 ]
65 MIG-29 [being upgraded]
50 MIRAGE-2000 [being upgraded]
140 MIG-27 [being upgraded]
120 JAGUAR in service [being upgraded] + 37 on order.
125 MIG-21 Bisons
200+ MIG-21 ML
20 MIG-23

chopters
80 ALH in service
30 Mi-35 [ upgraded ]
200 cheetha & chetak
150 + Mi-8
120+ Mi-17
6 Mi-26

future plans

126 MRCA [ induction will begin from 2012 ]
mostly MIG-35
3 phalcons will b delivered in feb - apr 2009 + 3 r ordered which r 2 b delivered in 2012.
80 Mi-17
250 ALH
70 LCH
200 + Chopters 2 replace cheetha & chetak

What the hell is a chopter? Dude atleast spell right before boosting all about oneself.

 

[IceCold]

Point towards a future which is characterized as bleak is not the same as suggesting that PAF is not acting to rise to the challenege or that all is lost -- lets be fair, where the Indian is in to Air supremacy and Dominance, Pakistani is left to "other" options. It has been so for the history of Pakistan, but it is unfair and unwise to think that populations will bear such burdens for long.

IAF is not the major Challenge. PAF, the FAUJ and the Bahriya are not the Republican Guard - but I would bring to your attention that in Majlis (parliament) briefings the DG ISI made it clear that after more than two months of action, the talib still control Swat district -- in other words a single district, one single district, the fauj has not been able to win, from freakin Talib - and we would talk trash to vast imperial armies, airforces and navies????

Martial pride ought not be equated with bravado. martial pride is based on real, sustained capablity, bravado with foolhardiness.

The kinds of challenges Pakistan faces, requires not off the shelf platforms, but a economic behemoth sustained by a educated disciplined industrial economy - it's not the platform, but the small sub systems that enable performance. It is not China's defence, nor US nor anybody other than Pakistan and if we do not have the will, lets not challenege.

Mr. Musharraf took the economy to double it's size and suggested that IF things continued as they had, we could double the economy every 7 years for the next 20 - but alas, Pakistan's politicians would not have any of that.

Today, we cannot stop UAV's and if God forbid the coalition decides "to do" Waziristan, we would do exactly what?? We cannot even retake a district in pakistan proper nor stop an insurgency in Balouchistan??. that the pakistani "has no clothes" is evident not just to the coalition but to former non-players such as Afghanistan.

If one cannot be enthusiastic about our ability to rise to a challenege, it must not be seen as anything but sad and sobering - but the time for sobriety is also at an end.

We now choose to disregard threats and challeneges for fear that we may have to respond - and we know our abilty to respond is "limited", worse still our population exhibits war weariness - our adversaries are waiting us out, they are informed by the idea that it is a ******* apple and will fall by it's own accord - perhaps they are wrong - about it falling on it's own accord, anyway.

A PAF that operates 700-1000 fighter bombers is of what use when the economy does not allow for the latest technology, we would be sacrificing young, brave pilots if we do not give them the absolute best there is. When growth is fed by injections of aid - can or will our strategic alliance withstand such pressure? Will our allies not be asking if we are a net asset or a liability?? Has it escaped anyone's attention that our starategic ally does more than US$60 Billion in annual business with our adversary and we do not do even US% billion?? Do these figures not hold a forboding eventuality??

Chalta hai simply cannot do - all I am sugesting is that we get serious or we realign, and the latter is doable, not that it is good or right.

This necessitated the reponse. to help clarify the position.

Our challenges are not limited to our neighbor - It is precisely this focus on the neighbor, in seeking to maintain parity with it that has result in the challenges being increased exponentially; Pakistan is not confined to it's subcontinental cage anymore.

Pakistan are now out paced, it could not be otherwise - the neighboring adversary is 10 ten times larger, always has been. And of course our political problems, what can one say about our political problems other than offer lament.

The point you have missed is that our ability to challenege is "negligible" now and given the political dispensation, we might get used to a "realignment" -- this realignment has already begun - Occupied Kashmiri are terrorists, an Indo-Afghan trade corridor is now a given, the neighbor adversary now position high performance aircraft at our door step, our response is ....

See, I am suggesting something I do not think you are following - we do not have the will nor an infrastructure for a sustained challenege -- and therefore the question, ought we persist? What is it that the neighbor adversary has not won without war that it seeks to win in war with us??

You read me wrong, I am not a proponent of this weakness, but I am question whether allocating more resources after a goal we are not in a position to achieve, nor have the will to achieve, is the way to proceed.

I want you to compare the behaviour of the state, media and populace to the challenege of insurrgency in India and Pakistan - India demonstrated the will to flood occupied kashmir with arms and men, it fenced the border, it's diplomacy identified pakistan with militancy and effectively isolated Pakistan - compare the Pakistani response to insurrgency - compare the response of the populace, the media.

All right these are most bitter truths, yet without the admission that something is terribly even fatally wrong, we are not going anywhere close to seeking answers for our predicament. My intent was not to cause injury but express misgivings with regard to framework within which we fashion our response.

While i would like to agree with you on certain realities i should say facing the economic challenge that we are in, however your opinion and the way you expressed certain things are more of an insult then rather a reality check as you might wana put it.

Ofcourse no one is denying this reality that without a strong economy we are going no where and that is exactly why all the development related to the armed forces have been seen in Musharraf era, because economy was growing and so we were able to spend more on defence.
But to simply say that we should shift our policy from India or that India is not a threat to Pakistan, imo is like living in a fools paradise. Have you ever wondered Muse that everytime India declares its strategic interests and discusses threats, Pakistan is on top of that, or for every terrorist attack in India, Pakistan is behind it. Can you expalin why that happens? Allow me to. Well a simply explaination to it is that India still considers Pakistan as an enemy and therefore relates it to all wrong doings inside India. However lets discuss it in depth. This is an understood reality that US wants to counter China and americans if anything obsessed with even more then OBL, its China and its growing influence and that is exactly why we are seeing this love partnership between both the US and India. Actually History is repeating itself but now Pakistan is not in it, instead we are being replaced by India and the motives are all the same. However what importance does Pakistan hold on to this, well since Gawdar was being developed and China was given access to it, US started to felt the pain, India also expressed its deepest concerns over it, we know why. Now the area for the WOT is being increased, talks about attacking Pakistani areas are on the way, the ghost of OBL is in pakistan, any new attack on the US soil will be from Pakistani territory,our nukes are ready to fall into the hands of extremists, India is being given a free access to afghanistan to do what ever it wishes, only chinese are being targeted and many other things like these have started, give it a thought and you will realize that this was never about WOT, there is a much bigger picture and that is why all this propaganda is going on and India is being allowed to carry up with whatever it wishes while the US has turned a blind eye to that. The recent water blockade by India was another example of this, only if you choose to ignore it.

US already wishes to change PA into a SWAT team. Obama has already said that although in a different manner that we will address Pakistan's security concerns related to India clearly showing what they wish to achieve by addressing the so called concerns.
So in a situation, where at one hand we do need to focus on what we are doing, we cannot simply ignore as if there is no India at the first place, we suffered once, cant expect that to happen, also as what PA can and cannot do well its a long debate and will continue someother time, however you do need to check few facts before commenting on the capabilities of the worlds sevent largest armed force.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

oh no.. not indian trollers again!

 

[TOPGUN]

c we Indians do not want anything bad for pakistan...... I dont want it atleast n million Indians like me..... we dont want to hurt u, or anybody, but first u have to stop the notion that India is ur enemy no. 1.........

man its been 61 years and 2 months of wastage of everything.......

u say India is no 1 threat to pakistan...... just tell me 1 time when India was the one who initiated a conflict.....................................

I tell u what the root cause is.....

Fundamental Hindus and Muslims hate each other, c i m talking about fundamentalists........n dont mind but, what i have come to know about a general pakistani is that he do really hate Hindus........n u people in pakistan r taught that hindus r bad, they r like that like this, they perform sati, n all that stuff, and teach u that they hate muslims, treat muslims badly, in short u r taught that Hindus n thus India is bad, a threat to u..........................

but believe me.... we r not told in our society that pakistan is like that........atleast in my 20 years of life.........

its just by what last 60 years we have seen, we assume we r enemies n threats to each other...........................n thus continue on this notion........... what will India get if we attack pakistan????? thousands of dead soilders and civilians.......... what else.....


in short India is not a threat to u, but it might be little-bit now, coz of all ur ISI did........... but still that much can be worked upon....................hope so...........

Ok Mr. x-rated first of all plzz dont point fingers i dont understand why you guys always do that very bad indain habit buss karo bacha ! second in all due respect i do agree with wat u are saying we need peace i do agree and its the fundamental Hundu's and Muslims i agree and the govt's it poltics yaar wake up anyhow i do support u on this topic and i hope both of us Indians and Pakistani's can be in peace for once and for all but again plzz dont say ISI this PAK that i can say alot about your Indian side as well in kashmir and raw and alot more but iam not so plzz say lets try for peace lets be friends lets not kill each other most of both countires poor are dying and we are ready kill each other so lets be decent with each other and i respect you views x finally we are having some friendly souls here lol have a good day cheers!