Pakistan Air Force — new challenges

[muse]

First fatman misrepresents the position I offered, now icecold ads to the misunderstanding:

But to simply say that we should shift our policy from India or that India is not a threat to Pakistan, imo is like living in a fools paradise. Have you ever wondered Muse that everytime India declares its strategic interests and discusses threats, Pakistan is on top of that, or for every terrorist attack in India, Pakistan is behind it. Can you expalin why that happens

WHAT HAVE THE INDIAN NOT WON WITHOUT WAR THAT THEY HOPE TO WIN by A WAR??

Have thought this through??

The Indian has been a most determined adversary, it wants to see the possiblity of any threat from Pakistan diminished to to zero, it has used it's diplomacy and it's economy to it's full advantage - in the meanwhile, Pakistani politicians have helped India achieve its objective.

fatman says ok, ok, warrior state bad, focus on economy, as if this was my position - economy of words, will suffice where understanding refuses to. The "warrior state" is, always was, a psyops myth.

HAVE YOU INTERNALIZED THE MEANING OF MR. ZARDARI'"S COMMENTS IN N.Y AND THE TRADE ROUTE FOR INDIA TO AFGHANIA??

HAVE YOU UNDERSTOOD THE FULL IMPORT OF THE U.S AND NOT THE INDIAN ATTACK ON PAKISTAN FOR THE KABUL EMBASSY BLAST????????????????

I don't believe you could have possibly considered these -- because if you had, you would understand that the Pakistani political dispensation (this PPP govt) is already in the process of realignment.

You make it sound as if I am suggesting that this should be done, whereas I have pointed out that it is already being done - lots of words, yes.

Pakistan's future as a Bangladesh is charted by this PPP govt, one voted into office by a majority -- why should you go ballistic at those who admit it and not at those who actually planned and executed this treachery??

You say, US has plans to counter China -- yes, and ?? Pakistan a sacrifical lamb?? Yes, and so ??

Does this not make my point that Pakistan's challenges have been upped exponentially??

The Industrial economy I talked about is not just to counter the Indian, you want to stop the American and his "coalition"? How? Has it really escaped your attention that while the Indian premier makes nice with Zardari, the US pleads the Indian case around the world?? What do you suppose is the meaning of these events????

Feel insulted?? great, feel insulted, don't you dare think, because that might lead to the will to make things rights for us - so feel free, feel insulted. But channel your "feelings" to the appropriate object, pakistani politicians and not Pakistanis who simply point to the meaning of the pakistani politicians behaviour .

 

[metalfalcon]

What the hell is a chopter? Dude atleast spell right before boosting all about oneself.

hahhahahahaha



Nice mann sahi hai ziadi maghroor ko bulandi say neechay gira diya

all the way

 

[fatman17]

First fatman misrepresents the position I offered, now icecold ads to the misunderstanding:

dissapointing to say the least. pls read my posts in WoT section where i have already shown my concern on the govt.'s appeasement policy.!

 

[MastanKhan]

Muse,

Thankyou---often I have tried to bring the issue to face---and it has always faced a concrete wall.

My colleagues----the pakistanis have a very hard time swallowing the bitter fact about their role in the NWFP and the conflict with al-qaeda---I have been writing on this board since 2005----I wrote on defence.info---I wrote on the pakistanidefence forum---I wrote to the dawn---the defence journal and wherever I could and everyone turned me away---my departure from this board for six plus months was for the same reason----pakistanis don't listen----maybe they don't have the ability to understand----day in and day out---I saw these superstar generals of pakistan army---retd of course come on tv and talk absolute HOGWASH about strategy, politics and tackling of al-qaeda----their ineptitude and non-committance of the pakistani defence forces to the cause has made a monster of the al-qaeda---where it could have been squashed in months---it would take some time now----.

Al qaeda is where it is because of the pakistani defence forces half hearted efforts, a lack of proper religious propaganda by the government radio, tv and news media in general. By allowing the telecast of the red mosque affair on live TV, was an absolute fiasco----by letting the taliban go scot free who were responsible for beheading the defence forces personale was a shame that no army would want to bear..

People say that THE SUICIDE BOMBERS CANNOT BE STOPPED---THEY CAN BE----SEND THEIR REMIANS BACK IN PIG SKINS---PACK THEIR BODIES IN THE CARCASS OF A DEAD BOARS STOMACH AND SEND IT TO THE AL QAEDA LAND. AND ADVERTISE IN ON TV AND RADIO THAT EVERY AL QAEDA OPERATIVE WILL HAVE HIS HEAD CHOPPED OFF AND WRAPPED IN THE STOMACH LININGS OF DOGS AND PIGS. SHOW THEIR LEFT OVERS BEING PACKED AS SUCH---LET US SEE HOW LONG THESE PEOPLE WILL LAST.

There should be anti terrorist courts established and every friday---arrested al qaeda operatives need to have their hands and feet chopped off in public by the order of the presiding judge---.

Pakistanis have been playing at their cute little games for a long time now----if the assault ever starts---'PEOPLE WHO SAY THAT PAKISTAN ARMY IS NO REPUBLICAN GUARD'---will find out that its FATE is no different than their unremarkable brethren---pakistanis do like to talk big about what we can do----pakistan won't last for 3 to 5 days at the most----within the first 24 to 36 hours---all of pakistan's oil reserves will be up in smoke---all known and unknown missile launchers will be neutralized---all the subs will be taken out---the u s army has a different game plan for the pakistani defence forces----they won't play the same game as they did with the iraqis----they need not go into pakistan to take control----it will be left over for the indian army to mop up what is left over.


I am reminded of pakistan---the pakistanis and the pakistani politicians of the time of Mongol Chengiz Khan's invasion of the muslim empire of Khwarzam Shah----it is stated in history books that when the armies of the mongol were approaching the muslim lands----the muslims were arguing in their mosques and palaces if the gender of the book THE HOLY QURA'AN is male of female---days and nights were being spent by the articulate and the inarticulate as well in this wasteful subject----the armies of the enemies became visible from the city defences---teh rest is history.

In the similiar manner we were fighting tooth and nail about the installments of the judges---of Nawaz Sharif's personal entourage back to pakistan---Benazir and Zardaris future in politics---for the last one and a half year the world was trying to focus on financial crisis that was coming upon us like a freight train going downhill with its brakes failed and we were bickering amongst ourselves---. We failed every oppurtunity given to us.

We cannot forget the past----the past is the foundation that the future is based upon---our past leads to our future---unless we stop and correct our directions, focus on our to do list and understand the consequences of the failures.

 

[fatman17]

MK - same here

 

[IceCold]

First fatman misrepresents the position I offered, now icecold ads to the misunderstanding:

I have added to nothing, was merely quoting the way you expressed your opinion, and i said you could have expressed it in a better manner. But whatever.

WHAT HAVE THE INDIAN NOT WON WITHOUT WAR THAT THEY HOPE TO WIN by A WAR??

Have thought this through??

Spare me with this sorry *** attitude. What exactly has India achieved until very lately. And still they are far behind then what you would like to portray them here.

The Indian has been a most determined adversary, it wants to see the possiblity of any threat from Pakistan diminished to to zero, it has used it's diplomacy and it's economy to it's full advantage - in the meanwhile, Pakistani politicians have helped India achieve its objective.

So if want any threat from Pakistan to be diminished to zero, how exactly were you suggesting earlier, that there should be a shift in policy. HOwever what i said was that indeed our focus needs to be somewhere else but not at the cost of shifting the entire threat assessment. What part of that did you not understand.

fatman says ok, ok, warrior state bad, focus on economy, as if this was my position - economy of words, will suffice where understanding refuses to. The "warrior state" is, always was, a psyops myth.

That is his assessment and how is this myth related to what i said. Again my comment was based on something that i felt could have been said in a better way if the point was to express opinion and not bash Pakistan.

HAVE YOU INTERNALIZED THE MEANING OF MR. ZARDARI'"S COMMENTS IN N.Y AND THE TRADE ROUTE FOR INDIA TO AFGHANIA??

HAVE YOU UNDERSTOOD THE FULL IMPORT OF THE U.S AND NOT THE INDIAN ATTACK ON PAKISTAN FOR THE KABUL EMBASSY BLAST????????????????

Zardari has infact placed different statments on different occasions and then backed off from many. So which exactly should we internalized on and which should we skip by.

I don't believe you could have possibly considered these -- because if you had, you would understand that the Pakistani political dispensation (this PPP govt) is already in the process of realignment.

Skipping the not understanding part, PPP govt maybe in the process, but i dont think that will work, considering the past, all ready PP has invited alot of criticism from within the country politically and non politically.

You make it sound as if I am suggesting that this should be done, whereas I have pointed out that it is already being done - lots of words, yes.

I am not sounding anything. The only thing i said was whatever you said could have been expressed in a better way and the degrading was unnecessary. I guess you missed the thankyou part by Indians for doing it by the way.

You say, US has plans to counter China -- yes, and ?? Pakistan a sacrifical lamb?? Yes, and so ??

So? So we should not be. Pakistan wasnt made to become a sacrifical lamb for any one and every one who decides to make use of it. Pakistan needs to counter that and that is exactly what i have been saying in all of my posts, that we need to define a certain limit beyond which we should not go.

Does this not make my point that Pakistan's challenges have been upped exponentially??

Your point circles around just one thing as seen clearly in your posts, that Pakistan should close her eyes and bomb every one and anyone in FATA area and ultimately this do more stuff will pass. No my friend it wont pass, and you are sadly mistaken about it, because it has never ever been about WOT at the first place. Secondly you like to sound as if Pakistan and Pakistanies are useless, and they cant do a damn thing yet alone stand to the US. Again wrong because with this kind of mentality, you cannot expect a Nation to rise. If you already know you will fail, you wont try for success. We do need to make our minds whether we need to stand up to this nonsense and counter it or sit down,relax and get humilated and in the end Pakistan will be the biggest loser.

The Industrial economy I talked about is not just to counter the Indian, you want to stop the American and his "coalition"? How? Has it really escaped your attention that while the Indian premier makes nice with Zardari, the US pleads the Indian case around the world?? What do you suppose is the meaning of these events????

There is only one meaning to this, do you understand what strategic interests are? US has a clear cut interest in India and that too for obvious reasons(China), i already mentioned that in my previous post. Havent you noticed that everytime something offensive(F-16s) are going to Pakistan, a debate starts how will that effect the balance, but yet this so called ally remains mute when a better thing is being offered to India as how exactly will that effect the so called strategic balance? So one meaning and one meaning only US is a potential threat to Pakistan and her interests and instead of continuing lying in bed, we need to make a shift in our policy. That shift means shift in policy with the talibans as well. Let me put it simple for you taliban in afghanistan serve Pakistan's interest more then anyone else. Pakistan was more safe and secure with taliban there and we did not suffered the BS that we currently are facing inside Pakistan.

Feel insulted?? great, feel insulted, don't you dare think, because that might lead to the will to make things rights for us - so feel free, feel insulted. But channel your "feelings" to the appropriate object, pakistani politicians and not Pakistanis who simply point to the meaning of the pakistani politicians behaviour.

The way you expressed i have clearly said was insulting not personally but in a larger sense as a Pakistani. Let me put it straight, i am simply of no opinion about our leadership and you can see that from various posts of mine, however i am also of no opinion about Pakistanies like you, sorry to say, but with people like you, who have the understanding of issues, yet chose to remain ignorant and thinks its just a political statement and people are getting jumpy over nothing, well you cant expect much of a change. Can you?

 

[muse]

Icecold

Sure, whatever.

 

[IceCold]

I am really pleased to hear that from a pakistsni... atleast there is one who understands and has a forecast vision of whats goin on..... Well said masterkhan, but would be good if implemented.........

do tell ur every pakistani fellas about this........................... hopefully they will agree to what the truth is.........

And the definition of this truth according to you is?? Ohh i forgot, something that goes inaccordance with the Indians is true and the rest is all BS.Ironic

 

[Spring Onion]

And the definition of this truth according to you is?? Ohh i forgot, something that goes inaccordance with the Indians is true and the rest is all BS.Ironic

that is if somethning sounds against Pakistan well that is truth and if some sounds against India well that is BS, ranting, trolling and so on.

 

[IceCold]

no, there is no definition of truth....... all that is happening around is truth.........

i just gave my view, whatever he said i think is right........ felling egoistic, will not solve anything.....

You certainly dont know the definition of truth and then on the other hand you claim to know the truth since by your previous you are hopefull for the other side to see this so called truth of yours.Nevermind

by the way who is feeling egoistic here?

 

[Spring Onion]

any answers for PHALCON's.............

SU-30MKI is something u cant even dream of getting.....IT will kill ur F-16 & jf-17 from a distance with its R-77 AV & powerful radar

the day it did do let us know

 

[aanshu001]

the day it did do let us know

that day no body need to tell world will know........but i pray that day would never come

 

[Contrarian]

Fatman---the pride of the IAF is stationed within 20 minutes off the pakistani heartland----india is sending out a dare to pakistan and PAF---there is a message---something has happened between the world super power and india in relation to pakistan since the departure of Musharraf---some kind of a deal has been struck---the posture of IAF has gone from wait and see attitude to right in your face stance---india doesnot need su 30's to fight insurgency in kashmir---they had their mirage 2000's for that.

Mate, India does not use fighters to fight insurgency. There has been only one record of IAF being involved in fighting insurgency-that was the bombing by IAF in Mizoram a few decades back.
As a policy, India does not use fighters, artillery, bombers, etc for fighting insurgency.

Just wanted to point out this fact, dont mean to derail the thread. I request other Indians here not to try to do that either.

 

[MastanKhan]

Malay,

I understand that part---.

 

[blain2]

Mate, India does not use fighters to fight insurgency. There has been only one record of IAF being involved in fighting insurgency-that was the bombing by IAF in Mizoram a few decades back.
As a policy, India does not use fighters, artillery, bombers, etc for fighting insurgency.

Just wanted to point out this fact, dont mean to derail the thread. I request other Indians here not to try to do that either.

India does not use the fighters and artillery because it has never had to fight in a terrain such as FATA. Also, India has never faced an adversary in a CI campaign inside of India armed with heavy AAA, recoiless rifles, mortars and howitzers. So lets not compare apples to oranges here. However what I do recall is that when IA went into SL (IPKF), they essentially fought with every thing they had including air support, artillery and armour against the Tamil ELAM forces. That too was a CI campaign if this term is being used so losely. So why the generalized statement "India does not use fighters to fight insurgency"?