PAKFA vs F-22

[Papa Dragon]

In my opinion should the SU-57 ever go into full rate production (Equipped with the proper hardware such as engines etc) this would be a dogfight for the ages.

It will be the same type of fight you can expect between Rocky Balboa and Ivan Drago - the best from two sides with highly different philosophies:

1. The U.S. with pure emphasis on stealth and maneuverability with less emphasis on speed, allowing it to focus on striking first and winning a dogfight if necessary.
2. Russia with pure emphasis on speed and maneuverability with less emphasis on stealth, allowing it to close quickly through minimal front facing stealth and targeting while allowing it to go all-out in a dogfight and win.

If outfitted how the Russians ideally want this, the SU-57 will be at a similar level in ability to the F-22, with both planes taking their strengths to the cutting edge of aerospace technology.

First the F-22:

1. F-22 Advantages:
   1. In general, a sleeker radar signature and better stealth at all angles. This allows the F-22 general control of how to engage and start the fight.
   2. Its engines are (currently) more powerful, and utilize two-dimensional thrust vectoring and power up to 37–39,000 lbs each
   3. Conclusion: the F-22 is currently better than the SU-57 in almost every category regarding kinematics. In a turning dogfight, where the SU’s 3D thrust vectoring could come into play, the F-22 would avoid this and out power/climb the SU-57 to escape and re-engage within its weapons envelope, controlling the engagement.
2. F-22 Armament:
   1. AN/APG-77 Radar
   2. Aim-120 AMRAAM active radar guided medium range air-to-air missile with a range of 111 miles.
   3. Aim-9 Sidewinder Infrared homing, semi active radar homing missile with 22 mile range
   4. Conclusion: The advanced trackers of the missiles increase the chances of a hit. The F-22 will need to approach and dictate the battle without being detected by the SU-57. This means that the F-22 needs to enter its weapons’s no escape zone before launching.
3. F-22 Strategy: Act like a sniper; lock on target and engage quickly before they can retaliate.
   1. The less-stealthy design of the SU-57 means that it should show up on radar first in a head on approach and even earlier if approached from the sides and back. The F-22 will then utilize the APG-77’s radar long-range tracking and identification advantage to its limit, identifying and striking at the SU in the AIM 120 and AIM 9’s no escape zone before the SU knows it’s been targeted. Should the there be a dogfight, the F-22 needs to use its power and stealth to outaccelerate and out range the SU and avoid potential weapons locks. It would then need to break line of sight to lose the SU so that it can re-engage within its weapons’s optimum ranges.

Next the SU-57:

1. SU-57 Advantages:
   1. 3D-thrust vectoring
      1. The vaunted F-22 has had 2D-thrust vectoring for over 20 years. This has been a sore sport and veritable bullseye to hit in terms of development for at least a generation. Frankly I’m surprised it hasn’t happened sooner. 3D-thrust vectoring in the SU gives a slight edge in low speed maneuverability.
   2. Engines (In the future)
      1. The Izdeliye-30, topping out at almost 40,000 lbs of thrust will actually outpower the current engines in the F-22. However these engines will not be implemented until 2020 at the earliest.
   3. 101ks Atoll Infrared Search and Track (IRST)
      1. No matter how advanced a target’s stealth capabilities are, they cannot hide their heat signature. Simply flying causes air friction, creating a heat differential against the atmosphere. Engine exhaust is even more obvious to detect. The system's problem is the limited search angle to directly in front and slightly to the side hinder the system’s ability to spot enemies, and limited range of 50 miles can put the SU within the ranges of the F-22’s weapons,
   4. Conclusion: A slight advantage in low speed maneuverability means that the SU NEEDS to get into a turning fight if it wants to survive the F-22’s initial onslaught. This will change should the Izdeliye engines which are more powerful than the F-22’s engines be implemented. IRST may give the SU-57 an advantage in finding the F-22, but that also assumes that the F-22 is somewhere in front of the SU.
2. SU-57 Armament
   1. Radar: Newly developed N036 Byelka. AESA capable and utilizes Xband in front and Lband on the side for Friend-or-Foe recognition. L band is lower frequency radar that could potentially detect the position of the F-22 at a distance, but low observation procedures need to be utilized otherwise the F-22 could detect the use of the low band radar and get a general position of the SU.
      1. Conclusion: Considering the APG-77 uses a nearly identical number (1910 for the Byelka vs 1956 vs the AN/APG-77) of the same GaAs transmitters as the Byelka, the performance per transmitters is expected to be similar. I would assume the detection range will be similar if not not slightly less than the AN/APG-77 and 77 V(1) at this point,
   2. R-77 Inertial guided, terminal active radar homing missile with 119 mile range.
      1. The advantage I see in initial INS guidance are that it cannot be countered with traditional electronic warfare. However predictive algorithmic calculations would have to be very, very, good for INS to predict the location of a plane moving at unpredictable dogfight speeds just before activating infrared terminal guidance.
   3. R-73m Infrared homing missile with a 25 mile range
   4. Conclusion: Slight advantage in range for the Russian weapons, but negated due to all-aspect stealth of F-22. The guidance systems of the American systems are more advanced as well, limiting the effective range of the SU’s weapons in comparison.
3. SU-57 Strategy: Essentially act like a boxing “In-fighter”; get in quick and do the damage.
   1. The SU-57 needs to figure out ASAP where the F-22 is, as in all likelihood, the F-22 will see it first. The front forward stealth the SU has means it needs to face the F-22 ASAP also to avoid being easily targeted. From there the SU will need to close the gap as quickly as possible to have the American fighter register on radar and allow the SU-57 engage its own weapons since it is engaging a fighter with better radar evasion. Once close in the SU NEEDS TO GET IN A DOGFIGHT. This allows it to take advantage of its maneuverability. Within 50 miles of the F-22, the SU can also utilize its IRST to find and point its radar at the F-22 to maximize its chance of lock-on. Once the Izdeliye engines are implemented, the SU can take further advantage of this strategy and even strike and dis-engage at will due to the newer engine’s greater power.
4. Conclusion:

Right now the F-22 holds a clear advantage to the SU-57 in an engagement.

The greater power the F-22 currently has, combined with its unbeaten stealth, allows it to engage at distance and negate the discernible advantage the SU-57 would have in a fight - it’s thrust vectoring engines - by simply outclimbing and powering away from combat distance with the SU.

If and when the SU-57 enters production with proper engines and equipment however, the Russians will have a fighter on par with and in some regards, better than the best fighter ever created by the U.S.

And should these fighters engage I have no doubt that it would be a dogfight for the ages.

 

[gambit]

If and when the SU-57 enters production with proper engines and equipment however, the Russians will have a fighter on par with and in some regards, better than the best fighter ever created by the U.S.

Here we go again...

 

[Signalian]

There will be many other factors in play such as AWACS, ELINT, Ground support systems, compliment of 4-4.5 gen fighters with F-22/PAK FA, that even a 1 on 1 discussion is useless. Even if one of these fighters comes out weak, the other supporting factors may help it win the day.

 

[Gomig-21]

If there's any truth to this...

1. The SU-57 needs to figure out ASAP where the F-22 is, as in all likelihood, the F-22 will see it first.

... then it's more than likely quite impossible for there to be any truth to this:

If and when the SU-57 enters production with proper engines and equipment however, the Russians will have a fighter on par with and in some regards, better than the best fighter ever created by the U.S.

Even being "on par" is a stretch given the information we have to date about both fighters. Also, there is something to be said as to the 20 years advantage the United States has on Russian aviation in the stealth department. Not only as far as R&D, but in materials, equipment, knowledge of performance and experience and operational experience being that the F-22 has been out there performing all sorts of missions and has worked out lot of the challenges that a new platform needs to go through. And so its worked out a lot of those things and I think it's a no-brainer that it would have a tremendous advantage with that experience.

Even the design of the aircraft themselves, I think there's always been that uncertainty as to whether the Su-57 has a stealthy design compared to the Raptor, particularly the bottom or belly of the aircraft. The F-22 has that flat, smooth belly where the engines are contained in it whereas the Su-57 has the shape of the two engines and a recessed belly area between. From what we've learned so far, that seems like an area where radar waves can bounce around and reflect back a lot easier than if it was smooth and deflect away, to put it in layman's terms.

vs

Then there's also always been the issue with the air intake S-ducting and how it's much more pronounced in the Raptor than it is in the Su-57.

There seems to also be an advantage in the IR spectrum for the F-22 with not only it's squared, 2-D nozzles, but they are also much more embedded into the airframe than the Su-57. That gives it a bit more of a reduced infrared signature which is part of that whole "stealth" package. You can see how far in the nozzles are in the Raptor vz the Su-57.

Still love them both and we really won't know until the Su-57 is completely operational and more data is released. What I do find very strange though is that we haven't seen a single weapon's test by the Su-57 since it made it's first flight 8 years ago this month. If they still have weapon's testing to undergo, that could be quite problematic as far as timing for entering production. By then, the US might be fielding it's 6th generation fighter!

 

[randomradio]

In my opinion should the SU-57 ever go into full rate production (Equipped with the proper hardware such as engines etc) this would be a dogfight for the ages.

It will be the same type of fight you can expect between Rocky Balboa and Ivan Drago - the best from two sides with highly different philosophies:

1. The U.S. with pure emphasis on stealth and maneuverability with less emphasis on speed, allowing it to focus on striking first and winning a dogfight if necessary.
2. Russia with pure emphasis on speed and maneuverability with less emphasis on stealth, allowing it to close quickly through minimal front facing stealth and targeting while allowing it to go all-out in a dogfight and win.

If outfitted how the Russians ideally want this, the SU-57 will be at a similar level in ability to the F-22, with both planes taking their strengths to the cutting edge of aerospace technology.

First the F-22:

1. F-22 Advantages:
   1. In general, a sleeker radar signature and better stealth at all angles. This allows the F-22 general control of how to engage and start the fight.
   2. Its engines are (currently) more powerful, and utilize two-dimensional thrust vectoring and power up to 37–39,000 lbs each
   3. Conclusion: the F-22 is currently better than the SU-57 in almost every category regarding kinematics. In a turning dogfight, where the SU’s 3D thrust vectoring could come into play, the F-22 would avoid this and out power/climb the SU-57 to escape and re-engage within its weapons envelope, controlling the engagement.
2. F-22 Armament:
   1. AN/APG-77 Radar
   2. Aim-120 AMRAAM active radar guided medium range air-to-air missile with a range of 111 miles.
   3. Aim-9 Sidewinder Infrared homing, semi active radar homing missile with 22 mile range
   4. Conclusion: The advanced trackers of the missiles increase the chances of a hit. The F-22 will need to approach and dictate the battle without being detected by the SU-57. This means that the F-22 needs to enter its weapons’s no escape zone before launching.
3. F-22 Strategy: Act like a sniper; lock on target and engage quickly before they can retaliate.
   1. The less-stealthy design of the SU-57 means that it should show up on radar first in a head on approach and even earlier if approached from the sides and back. The F-22 will then utilize the APG-77’s radar long-range tracking and identification advantage to its limit, identifying and striking at the SU in the AIM 120 and AIM 9’s no escape zone before the SU knows it’s been targeted. Should the there be a dogfight, the F-22 needs to use its power and stealth to outaccelerate and out range the SU and avoid potential weapons locks. It would then need to break line of sight to lose the SU so that it can re-engage within its weapons’s optimum ranges.

Next the SU-57:

1. SU-57 Advantages:
   1. 3D-thrust vectoring
      1. The vaunted F-22 has had 2D-thrust vectoring for over 20 years. This has been a sore sport and veritable bullseye to hit in terms of development for at least a generation. Frankly I’m surprised it hasn’t happened sooner. 3D-thrust vectoring in the SU gives a slight edge in low speed maneuverability.
   2. Engines (In the future)
      1. The Izdeliye-30, topping out at almost 40,000 lbs of thrust will actually outpower the current engines in the F-22. However these engines will not be implemented until 2020 at the earliest.
   3. 101ks Atoll Infrared Search and Track (IRST)
      1. No matter how advanced a target’s stealth capabilities are, they cannot hide their heat signature. Simply flying causes air friction, creating a heat differential against the atmosphere. Engine exhaust is even more obvious to detect. The system's problem is the limited search angle to directly in front and slightly to the side hinder the system’s ability to spot enemies, and limited range of 50 miles can put the SU within the ranges of the F-22’s weapons,
   4. Conclusion: A slight advantage in low speed maneuverability means that the SU NEEDS to get into a turning fight if it wants to survive the F-22’s initial onslaught. This will change should the Izdeliye engines which are more powerful than the F-22’s engines be implemented. IRST may give the SU-57 an advantage in finding the F-22, but that also assumes that the F-22 is somewhere in front of the SU.
2. SU-57 Armament
   1. Radar: Newly developed N036 Byelka. AESA capable and utilizes Xband in front and Lband on the side for Friend-or-Foe recognition. L band is lower frequency radar that could potentially detect the position of the F-22 at a distance, but low observation procedures need to be utilized otherwise the F-22 could detect the use of the low band radar and get a general position of the SU.
      1. Conclusion: Considering the APG-77 uses a nearly identical number (1910 for the Byelka vs 1956 vs the AN/APG-77) of the same GaAs transmitters as the Byelka, the performance per transmitters is expected to be similar. I would assume the detection range will be similar if not not slightly less than the AN/APG-77 and 77 V(1) at this point,
   2. R-77 Inertial guided, terminal active radar homing missile with 119 mile range.
      1. The advantage I see in initial INS guidance are that it cannot be countered with traditional electronic warfare. However predictive algorithmic calculations would have to be very, very, good for INS to predict the location of a plane moving at unpredictable dogfight speeds just before activating infrared terminal guidance.
   3. R-73m Infrared homing missile with a 25 mile range
   4. Conclusion: Slight advantage in range for the Russian weapons, but negated due to all-aspect stealth of F-22. The guidance systems of the American systems are more advanced as well, limiting the effective range of the SU’s weapons in comparison.
3. SU-57 Strategy: Essentially act like a boxing “In-fighter”; get in quick and do the damage.
   1. The SU-57 needs to figure out ASAP where the F-22 is, as in all likelihood, the F-22 will see it first. The front forward stealth the SU has means it needs to face the F-22 ASAP also to avoid being easily targeted. From there the SU will need to close the gap as quickly as possible to have the American fighter register on radar and allow the SU-57 engage its own weapons since it is engaging a fighter with better radar evasion. Once close in the SU NEEDS TO GET IN A DOGFIGHT. This allows it to take advantage of its maneuverability. Within 50 miles of the F-22, the SU can also utilize its IRST to find and point its radar at the F-22 to maximize its chance of lock-on. Once the Izdeliye engines are implemented, the SU can take further advantage of this strategy and even strike and dis-engage at will due to the newer engine’s greater power.
4. Conclusion:

Right now the F-22 holds a clear advantage to the SU-57 in an engagement.

The greater power the F-22 currently has, combined with its unbeaten stealth, allows it to engage at distance and negate the discernible advantage the SU-57 would have in a fight - it’s thrust vectoring engines - by simply outclimbing and powering away from combat distance with the SU.

If and when the SU-57 enters production with proper engines and equipment however, the Russians will have a fighter on par with and in some regards, better than the best fighter ever created by the U.S.

And should these fighters engage I have no doubt that it would be a dogfight for the ages.

Here we go again...

The PAK FA, the actual version which will be ready for induction in 2025, will be a competitor for the PCA, not the F-22.

In terms of range, avionics complex, engine, payload etc, the F-22 is not even in the same class as the PAK FA. For example, the F-22's range is less than 3000Km even with 2 drop tanks, but PAK FA's range only on internal fuel is planned to be as much as 5000Km.

In terms of stealth, we know for a fact that the F-35 is more stealthy than the F-22, but we have indications from HAL that the FGFA will be as much or more stealthy than the F-35 based on passive measures only.

If there's any truth to this...



... then it's more than likely quite impossible for there to be any truth to this:



Even being "on par" is a stretch given the information we have to date about both fighters. Also, there is something to be said as to the 20 years advantage the United States has on Russian aviation in the stealth department. Not only as far as R&D, but in materials, equipment, knowledge of performance and experience and operational experience being that the F-22 has been out there performing all sorts of missions and has worked out lot of the challenges that a new platform needs to go through. And so its worked out a lot of those things and I think it's a no-brainer that it would have a tremendous advantage with that experience.

Even the design of the aircraft themselves, I think there's always been that uncertainty as to whether the Su-57 has a stealthy design compared to the Raptor, particularly the bottom or belly of the aircraft. The F-22 has that flat, smooth belly where the engines are contained in it whereas the Su-57 has the shape of the two engines and a recessed belly area between. From what we've learned so far, that seems like an area where radar waves can bounce around and reflect back a lot easier than if it was smooth and deflect away, to put it in layman's terms.

vs

Then there's also always been the issue with the air intake S-ducting and how it's much more pronounced in the Raptor than it is in the Su-57.

There seems to also be an advantage in the IR spectrum for the F-22 with not only it's squared, 2-D nozzles, but they are also much more embedded into the airframe than the Su-57. That gives it a bit more of a reduced infrared signature which is part of that whole "stealth" package. You can see how far in the nozzles are in the Raptor vz the Su-57.

Still love them both and we really won't know until the Su-57 is completely operational and more data is released. What I do find very strange though is that we haven't seen a single weapon's test by the Su-57 since it made it's first flight 8 years ago this month. If they still have weapon's testing to undergo, that could be quite problematic as far as timing for entering production. By then, the US might be fielding it's 6th generation fighter!

The PAK FA's inlets are S-ducts.

The aircraft is still a WIP though.

 

[LeGenD]

PAK-FA is not even ready yet and people boasting about its capabilities.

Russians can develop some good machines but they lack in resources and Industrial capability to compete with Americans in defense-related matters.

Only China can afford an arms-race with the US at present, and in the foreseeable future.

 

[randomradio]

PAK-FA is not even ready yet and people boasting about its capabilities.

Its high end capabilities are the reason why it's not ready yet.

 

[Cell_DbZ]

There will be many other factors in play such as AWACS, ELINT, Ground support systems, compliment of 4-4.5 gen fighters with F-22/PAK FA, that even a 1 on 1 discussion is useless. Even if one of these fighters comes out weak, the other supporting factors may help it win the day.

Not to mention that the Russians probably have different requirements for their Su-57 compared to the Americans with their F-22...

 

[Gomig-21]

Before I get any further into this debate, I'm offering a disclaimer that I am a HUGE fan of Russian aviation and that anything I say regarding the Su-57 is purely objective and without an ounce of bias. The same goes for American aviation.

The PAK FA's inlets are S-ducts.

The last time anything related to the PAK-FA ducting from its air inlets to the fan blades of the motor was anything but S-duct shaped, as evidenced from this leaked photo and many of the Raptor.

PAK-FA clear view of almost 3/4 of the fan blades.

Raptor, not even a single edge of the fan cylinder in sight.

Even without these pictures, if you only had the side view of both aircraft, you can easily see the slim profile of the PAK-FA (from top to bottom) vs the Raptor's which is pretty clear the former hardly has the room to turn it's ducts vertically in a significant manner. To say that they turn in a lateral manner is even more unlikely as you view the aircraft from the top and/or bottom, you can see the line from center of air intake to center of nozzle hardly moves to any direction. So they definitely don't turn sideways and the body is quite slim that any vertical turning is marginal.

This also relates to the other point I mentioned about the flat belly of the Raptor where it would have all that room to create lateral movement of the air ducts but in the PAK-FA, the area between the two engines is recessed which not only negates any room for the ducts, it's also used up for the internal weapons stations and on top of that, that recessing of the middle of the belly creates 90 degree corners to those air intakes which presents another big problem for radar reflection and RCS.

The PAK FA, the actual version which will be ready for induction in 2025, will be a competitor for the PCA, not the F-22.

So you're telling me that a program that is at least 10-15 years behind the F-22 Raptor's will not only be better than it, but also compete with the US' 6th generation tail-less aircraft technology? Things like these, here?

Without even getting into the technological advancements the US will be at with these types of platforms, I think that's quite the stretch, my friend.

In terms of range, avionics complex, engine, payload etc, the F-22 is not even in the same class as the PAK FA. For example, the F-22's range is less than 3000Km even with 2 drop tanks, but PAK FA's range only on internal fuel is planned to be as much as 5000Km.

Engine T/W ratio and overall power I'll give you, but how could you possibly know anything about the difference in the avionics suites?

And any source for the fuel capacity? Just by visual observations and basic information on the measurements of both aircraft, it's impossible for the PAF-FA with an almost 35% slimmer profile and a slightly larger overall length and width than the Raptor to have 2000km worth of additional internal fuel capacity.

In terms of stealth, we know for a fact that the F-35 is more stealthy than the F-22, but we have indications from HAL that the FGFA will be as much or more stealthy than the F-35 based on passive measures only.

Wait a minute, didn't HAL come out with a huge report on how dissatisfied they were with the Su-57's stealth characteristics?

There's also the issue with the Su-57 quite possibly having a higher infrared signature because of it's large, exposed nozzles (even with the eventual LO Izdeliye 30) it still has to deal with recessing issues and embedded engine nozzles and we know nothing about if or how they'll address the nacelles with either ceramic coverings or whatever. And the infrared signature is a large part of the stealth package in light of many advancements in aircraft equipped with the latest IRST packages.

 

[Trango Towers]

I am waiting to see Pakistan's fith gen comms off the drawing board.

 

[randomradio]

Before I get any further into this debate, I'm offering a disclaimer that I am a HUGE fan of Russian aviation and that anything I say regarding the Su-57 is purely objective and without an ounce of bias. The same goes for American aviation.



The last time anything related to the PAK-FA ducting from its air inlets to the fan blades of the motor was anything but S-duct shaped, as evidenced from this leaked photo and many of the Raptor.

PAK-FA clear view of almost 3/4 of the fan blades.

Raptor, not even a single edge of the fan cylinder in sight.

Even without these pictures, if you only had the side view of both aircraft, you can easily see the slim profile of the PAK-FA (from top to bottom) vs the Raptor's which is pretty clear the former hardly has the room to turn it's ducts vertically in a significant manner. To say that they turn in a lateral manner is even more unlikely as you view the aircraft from the top and/or bottom, you can see the line from center of air intake to center of nozzle hardly moves to any direction. So they definitely don't turn sideways and the body is quite slim that any vertical turning is marginal.

This also relates to the other point I mentioned about the flat belly of the Raptor where it would have all that room to create lateral movement of the air ducts but in the PAK-FA, the area between the two engines is recessed which not only negates any room for the ducts, it's also used up for the internal weapons stations and on top of that, that recessing of the middle of the belly creates 90 degree corners to those air intakes which presents another big problem for radar reflection and RCS.

The PAK FA's got S-ducts. What you see in the image is apparently radar blockers.

So you're telling me that a program that is at least 10-15 years behind the F-22 Raptor's will not only be better than it, but also compete with the US' 6th generation tail-less aircraft technology? Things like these, here?

The PAK FA is not 10-15 years behind.

The aircraft that were supposed to be in the same timeline as F-22 were the Mig 1.44 and Su-47. These aircraft were behind the F-22 in terms of RCS. But they were more or less similar to the F-22 in many ways. Weapons bays, sensor fusion, low RCS design etc.

But PAK FA is not in the same class as the F-22. You can say that the Russians are making a 6th gen equivalent of whatever will replace the F-22.

The PAK FA has similar passive stealth, but it will also have active measures, which the F-22 lacks. Then the range is more than double that of the F-22. The speed and altitude are also greater. The IWB holds far more weapons. The avionics are all next gen, not even one of it has a western equivalent yet. The aircraft is controlled by AI, similar to the Su-35, it can fight on its own without pilot input for most scenarios.

Without even getting into the technological advancements the US will be at with these types of platforms, I think that's quite the stretch, my friend.

All of that is just concept art.

The actual jet they are making is pretty close to what the PAK FA will be. But it will be a more modern design of course.

Engine T/W ratio and overall power I'll give you, but how could you possibly know anything about the difference in the avionics suites?

From all the official news we have been getting.

The avionics of the F-35 and Rafale are very similar. Our officials have said the FGFA will have avionics that are a generation ahead.

And any source for the fuel capacity? Just by visual observations and basic information on the measurements of both aircraft, it's impossible for the PAF-FA with an almost 35% slimmer profile and a slightly larger overall length and width than the Raptor to have 2000km worth of additional internal fuel capacity.

The PAK FA is massive. It's lighter than the F-22 but it's really massive. Just look at the sheer size of the main fuselage. It's easily twice the size of the F-22's. For example, the IWB of the F-22 pretty much covers the entire fuselage width, but is only 1.8m, a bit more. But the PAK FA has a 1.2m weapons bay, followed by 2 massive intakes and then some more fuselage beyond that up to the side bays. The internal volume of the PAK FA is a lot bigger than the F-22's.

If you think the Flanker is big, then the PAK FA--

Wait a minute, didn't HAL come out with a huge report on how dissatisfied they were with the Su-57's stealth characteristics?

It's actually the IAF.

There are 5 groups with different opinions.
HAL, IAF, MoF, PM and expert panel.

I'll give you the opinions of all.
HAL - They want the FGFA to go ahead. The HAL Chief said it's his highest priority.

MoF (Finance) - They can't afford it.

PM - They want to hold off on the project because Russia is playing with China against Indian interests.

IAF - They want the Rafale to go through first. They criticized the FGFA for costs because it was eating into the Rafale funds. And they used excuses to attack the FGFA in order to delay it so the Rafale goes through. For example, the PAK FA with a new engine is yet to fly, so that was one point of attack. The second point of attack is the PAK FA has inadequate stealth for current prototypes, which is true because the current prototypes are primarily aerodynamic prototypes and not full stealth prototypes with all stealth measures applied. Cost is obviously another point of attack. The jet is so advanced that it's becoming more and more expensive. If I give you some of the information that I already know of, you will go bonkers. They may have to go for a slight rejig in order to make it affordable.

Expert panel - Govt appointed experts who said the aircraft project should go ahead. This is pretty much the most important opinion among all of them. Their job is to study the specs of the aircraft, the costs involved, the time it will take etc. And then submit a report to either withdraw or go ahead. And they decided the project should get the green light.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...with-russia/story-WnsYzpGt84I1IoqhLRxTPM.html
A top government source said the panel, to be headed by a three-star officer, would look into different aspects of the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) project and the technology it brings into the country to meet the air force’s future requirements.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...s-top-panel/story-mPrhroM6ftEOSFldOtunnJ.html
At a time when the IAF has serious reservations about the project, the committee, headed by Air Marshal Simhakutty Varthaman (retd), has strongly recommended India should go ahead with it, the sources said.

Generally, things move based on what the govt committees suggest.

The biggest problem is affordability because we will have to run three (potentially 4) 5th gen programs in parallel. After that it's politics.

The IAF is taking pot shots on the FGFA because we have other programs to fall back on. They know that they can always opt for some PAK FA directly from Russian lines later on, which is an option for them right now, separate from FGFA development.

There's also the issue with the Su-57 quite possibly having a higher infrared signature because of it's large, exposed nozzles (even with the eventual LO Izdeliye 30) it still has to deal with recessing issues and embedded engine nozzles and we know nothing about if or how they'll address the nacelles with either ceramic coverings or whatever. And the infrared signature is a large part of the stealth package in light of many advancements in aircraft equipped with the latest IRST packages.

 

[Ultima Thule]

The PAK FA's got S-ducts. What you see in the image is apparently radar blockers.

The PAK FA is not 10-15 years behind.

The aircraft that were supposed to be in the same timeline as F-22 were the Mig 1.44 and Su-47. These aircraft were behind the F-22 in terms of RCS. But they were more or less similar to the F-22 in many ways. Weapons bays, sensor fusion, low RCS design etc.

But PAK FA is not in the same class as the F-22. You can say that the Russians are making a 6th gen equivalent of whatever will replace the F-22.

The PAK FA has similar passive stealth, but it will also have active measures, which the F-22 lacks. Then the range is more than double that of the F-22. The speed and altitude are also greater. The IWB holds far more weapons. The avionics are all next gen, not even one of it has a western equivalent yet. The aircraft is controlled by AI, similar to the Su-35, it can fight on its own without pilot input for most scenarios.



All of that is just concept art.

The actual jet they are making is pretty close to what the PAK FA will be. But it will be a more modern design of course.



From all the official news we have been getting.

The avionics of the F-35 and Rafale are very similar. Our officials have said the FGFA will have avionics that are a generation ahead.



The PAK FA is massive. It's lighter than the F-22 but it's really massive. Just look at the sheer size of the main fuselage. It's easily twice the size of the F-22's. For example, the IWB of the F-22 pretty much covers the entire fuselage width, but is only 1.8m, a bit more. But the PAK FA has a 1.2m weapons bay, followed by 2 massive intakes and then some more fuselage beyond that up to the side bays. The internal volume of the PAK FA is a lot bigger than the F-22's.

If you think the Flanker is big, then the PAK FA--

It's actually the IAF.

There are 5 groups with different opinions.
HAL, IAF, MoF, PM and expert panel.

I'll give you the opinions of all.
HAL - They want the FGFA to go ahead. The HAL Chief said it's his highest priority.

MoF (Finance) - They can't afford it.

PM - They want to hold off on the project because Russia is playing with China against Indian interests.

IAF - They want the Rafale to go through first. They criticized the FGFA for costs because it was eating into the Rafale funds. And they used excuses to attack the FGFA in order to delay it so the Rafale goes through. For example, the PAK FA with a new engine is yet to fly, so that was one point of attack. The second point of attack is the PAK FA has inadequate stealth for current prototypes, which is true because the current prototypes are primarily aerodynamic prototypes and not full stealth prototypes with all stealth measures applied. Cost is obviously another point of attack. The jet is so advanced that it's becoming more and more expensive. If I give you some of the information that I already know of, you will go bonkers. They may have to go for a slight rejig in order to make it affordable.

Expert panel - Govt appointed experts who said the aircraft project should go ahead. This is pretty much the most important opinion among all of them. Their job is to study the specs of the aircraft, the costs involved, the time it will take etc. And then submit a report to either withdraw or go ahead. And they decided the project should get the green light.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...with-russia/story-WnsYzpGt84I1IoqhLRxTPM.html
A top government source said the panel, to be headed by a three-star officer, would look into different aspects of the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) project and the technology it brings into the country to meet the air force’s future requirements.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...s-top-panel/story-mPrhroM6ftEOSFldOtunnJ.html
At a time when the IAF has serious reservations about the project, the committee, headed by Air Marshal Simhakutty Varthaman (retd), has strongly recommended India should go ahead with it, the sources said.

Generally, things move based on what the govt committees suggest.

The biggest problem is affordability because we will have to run three (potentially 4) 5th gen programs in parallel. After that it's politics.

The IAF is taking pot shots on the FGFA because we have other programs to fall back on. They know that they can always opt for some PAK FA directly from Russian lines later on, which is an option for them right now, separate from FGFA development.

Too much wishful thinking and living in fantasy world is bad for your health sir its a worst LO design among all 5th generation jets and you're comparing it with upcoming 6th generation design and how do you know that it is similar to Su-57 its basically Lockheed Martin concept cgi not final design and its is more resemble to. Flatten F-22 rather than Su-57 and Su-57 just a flattened flankers and nothing more

 

[randomradio]

Too much wishful thinking and living in fantasy world is bad for your health sir its a worst LO design among all 5th generation jets and you're comparing it with upcoming 6th generation design and how do you know that it is similar to Su-57 its basically Lockheed Martin concept cgi not final design and its is more resemble to. Flatten F-22 rather than Su-57 and Su-57 just a flattened flankers and nothing more

The French already claim to have achieved F-22 levels of stealth on their Rafales.

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...alth-fighter-rafale-indian-air-force-3737350/
Chinese J-20 stealth fighter not cause for concern, Rafale too has stealth features: Air Marshal

I hope you understand that only F-22, F-35 and Rafale have been advertised to have stealth features among all western aircraft.

And even with F-22 level stealth on Rafale, our officials say FGFA will be a generation ahead compared to Rafale.

 

[Ultima Thule]

The French already claim to have achieved F-22 levels of stealth on their Rafales.

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...alth-fighter-rafale-indian-air-force-3737350/
Chinese J-20 stealth fighter not cause for concern, Rafale too has stealth features: Air Marshal

I hope you understand that only F-22, F-35 and Rafale have been advertised to have stealth features among all western aircraft.

And even with F-22 level stealth on Rafale, our officials say FGFA will be a generation ahead compared to Rafale.

what joke you have sir does RAFALE have weapon bays to enhance stealth doese RAFALE have stealth shaping like F-22 and don't refer me to SPECTRA its has its own weakness currently FGFA is paper project let wait and see what comes out (RAFALE RCS is about 1m2 whereas F-22 RCS 00000.1)

 

[randomradio]

what joke you have sir does RAFALE have weapon bays to enhance stealth doese RAFALE have stealth shaping like F-22 and don't refer me to SPECTRA its has its own weakness currently FGFA is paper project let wait and see what comes out (RAFALE RCS is about 1m2 whereas F-22 RCS 00000.1)

Rafale doesn't need all that. It simply disappears from enemy radars even with full external stores.

There are many forms of stealth. And right now, only 3 aircraft fit the bill, including Rafale.

PAK FA combines both F-22/F-35 stealth techniques as well as Rafale's stealth techniques.