Pak US; Tranactional Relationship

[fatman17]

and who is the closest US ally in the range of pak missiles? India? do u really think USA will give a damn if pak nukes india?

secondly, i already mentioned how NATO can take out pak nukes before they are launched.


USA hasnt won yet coz they are fighting a guerrila force who keep running into caves the moment NATO artillery/airstrikes open up.

I agree that USA cant OCCUPY pak, but they can beat the hell out of pakistan, or nearly any other country, for that matter. all they have to do is conduct aerial bombings on pakistn's economic and military infrastructure. it'll cripple pakistan.

SU-47 - u r beating your head against a wall. get my drift!

 

[MOSABJA]

and who is the closest US ally in the range of pak missiles? India? do u really think USA will give a damn if pak nukes india?

secondly, i already mentioned how NATO can take out pak nukes before they are launched.


USA hasnt won yet coz they are fighting a guerrila force who keep running into caves the moment NATO artillery/airstrikes open up.

I agree that USA cant OCCUPY pak, but they can beat the hell out of pakistan, or nearly any other country, for that matter. all they have to do is conduct aerial bombings on pakistn's economic and military infrastructure. it'll cripple pakistan.

Wo Hoooo!!!!!!!


I know US can CRIPPLE Pakistan or just BOMB IT TO STONE AGE just be Cruise missiles in dozens.


But have you forgotton what Pakistan can do.Pakistan can NUKE ISRAEL.

Thats another CLOSEST US ALLY IN THE NET.

Pakistan's tested and operational Shaheen 2 can reach Israel.Israel has ABMS but with MIRV and other penetration aids there are VERY HIGH POSSIBILITIES of Missiles reaching Israel.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39936000/gif/_39936067_pakistan_missile_map416.gif

SECONDLY other missiles like ghauri3(3500km) and Shaheen 3(4000km) are reportedly developed but a right time for its testing will be choosen.

THIRDLY Pakistan can in FUTURE develop
1)Sea launched Babur capable of hitting israel with subs.
2)Long range cruise missiles2500-3000 km) can be developed.

DO YOU THINK US WILL PUT ITS BABY CHILD ISRAEL'S VERY EXISTENCE IN THREAT BY ATTACKING PAKISTAN.

I DONT THINK SO

SO AMERICA WILL LOOSE TOO MUCH IN ATTACKING PAKISTAN SO I DONT THINK IT CANNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

 

[MOSABJA]

Closely look at the link

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39936000/gif/_39936067_pakistan_missile_map416.gif

The blue Line includes Israel

thats of shaheen 2

 

[blain2]

Lesser said the better!

 

[fatman17]

Lesser said the better!

need to put an end to this - going nowhere with this kind of attitude!

 

[maqsad]

If you have any alternative for countering the NATO threat to Pakistan then you are welcome.


Not saying that taliban is the only option .Just saying that NATO is a threat that needs to be countered.

By the way there is another thread in this sec that obama wants to invade Pakistan.Others will definitely want to harm pakistan.

Chinese are our friends and strategic partners.

So then what is the problem with inviting the Chinese to open some bases in Pakistan? Will this guarantee to make NATO attack or sanction pakistan? Will US withdraw military aid if that happens? I am sure this has been considered but I never see discussion of this on forums.

 

[su-47]

Wo Hoooo!!!!!!!


I know US can CRIPPLE Pakistan or just BOMB IT TO STONE AGE just be Cruise missiles in dozens.


But have you forgotton what Pakistan can do.Pakistan can NUKE ISRAEL.

Thats another CLOSEST US ALLY IN THE NET.

Pakistan's tested and operational Shaheen 2 can reach Israel.Israel has ABMS but with MIRV and other penetration aids there are VERY HIGH POSSIBILITIES of Missiles reaching Israel.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39936000/gif/_39936067_pakistan_missile_map416.gif

SECONDLY other missiles like ghauri3(3500km) and Shaheen 3(4000km) are reportedly developed but a right time for its testing will be choosen.

THIRDLY Pakistan can in FUTURE develop
1)Sea launched Babur capable of hitting israel with subs.
2)Long range cruise missiles2500-3000 km) can be developed.

DO YOU THINK US WILL PUT ITS BABY CHILD ISRAEL'S VERY EXISTENCE IN THREAT BY ATTACKING PAKISTAN.

I DONT THINK SO

SO AMERICA WILL LOOSE TOO MUCH IN ATTACKING PAKISTAN SO I DONT THINK IT CANNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

i know very well that israel is within pak's nuclear reach. but as i mentioned before, USA has the means to knock out pak missiles BEFORE they are launched.

During the cold war, USA and Russia developed several methods of knocking enemy BMs before they could reach their homelands. These include ABM systems, ABLs and above all, satellites that warned of nuclear countdowns that enabled aircraft to take out the missile before it is fired.

these systems are the main reason that USA and USSR developed so many nuclear warheads and missiles, in order to overwhelm the enemy's defences with sheer numbers. Pak does not have that many nukes. NATO will be able to take em out before they are launched.

if NATO aatcks they will be able to gain air supremacy within hours. they'll probably take out PAF on the ground with stealth aircraft. they'll bomb all airbases to prevent air dropped nukes from being deployed then their ABLs, AWACs and attack aircraft will be patrolling pak airspace. the moment a missile is readide for launch, thier satellites will detect it and their patrolling aircraft will take it out.

now you tell me, how can pak nuke israel, or any other country for that matter?

 

[maqsad]

i know very well that israel is within pak's nuclear reach. but as i mentioned before, USA has the means to knock out pak missiles BEFORE they are launched.

During the cold war, USA and Russia developed several methods of knocking enemy BMs before they could reach their homelands. These include ABM systems, ABLs and above all, satellites that warned of nuclear countdowns that enabled aircraft to take out the missile before it is fired.

these systems are the main reason that USA and USSR developed so many nuclear warheads and missiles, in order to overwhelm the enemy's defences with sheer numbers. Pak does not have that many nukes. NATO will be able to take em out before they are launched.

if NATO aatcks they will be able to gain air supremacy within hours. they'll probably take out PAF on the ground with stealth aircraft. they'll bomb all airbases to prevent air dropped nukes from being deployed then their ABLs, AWACs and attack aircraft will be patrolling pak airspace. the moment a missile is readide for launch, thier satellites will detect it and their patrolling aircraft will take it out.

now you tell me, how can pak nuke israel, or any other country for that matter?

It is quite possible that NATO has wargamed this exact scenario and concluded that the chance of nuclear tipped missiles being launched is knocked down to 1-5% or even less. Statistically this would still not be acceptable to NATO as a non defensive first strike option so it still gives pak a tiny bit of a deterrent value, so far at least.

 

[su-47]

It is quite possible that NATO has wargamed this exact scenario and concluded that the chance of nuclear tipped missiles being launched is knocked down to 1-5% or even less. Statistically this would still not be acceptable to NATO as a non defensive first strike option so it still gives pak a tiny bit of a deterrent value, so far at least.

if that is the case at the present, then it is possible that NATO is taking measures to eradicate that chance all togehter.

All this is assuming that NATO wants to attack pak. It is also very much possible that NATO is not planning to attack pak at all.

 

[maqsad]

if that is the case at the present, then it is possible that NATO is taking measures to eradicate that chance all togehter.

Possible? No, I think it is guaranteed that it is a top priority with the pentagon to minimize that chance down to as close to zero as is technologically possible.

All this is assuming that NATO wants to attack pak. It is also very much possible that NATO is not planning to attack pak at all.

Whether NATO is currently sure or unsure about attacking pakistan I am certain that pentagon strategists, engineers and scientists will continue to constantly work 365 days a year on scenarios that involve taking out pak nukes. This defanging capability is one of the very best political weapons that the US has against pakistan to ensure it's obedient compliance!

I strongly suspect that the threat of denuking pakistan is constantly held over the heads of the pak military as a sword of democales because if nukes were taken away then the life expectancy of the pakistani state falls dramatically! Remember 1998 when India was ready to just invade Pakistan? Everything in world affairs is tied together and has been worked out...

 

[MOSABJA]

Well first of all I do know that in a war time scenario it will be very difficult for Pakistan to really challenge NATO.Assuming NATO attacks it.Even though I dont see a full scale invasion in the near future.


But we have to keep few things in mind

1)America,NATO or any other country does not know the exact location of all Pakistani nukes.Even if they had a little bit of knowledge their would still be a doubt that pakistan might have decoys to fool Possible thieves and Nukes could even be present in some very remote areas .After all WHO KNOWS???????

2)Secondly NO MISSILE DEFENSE SYSTEM ENSURE 100% PROTECTION.NONE OF THEM.

Specially if you have latest BMs with MIRVs and Penetration aids.

3)I dont see NATO attacking Pakistan Right now.Even if I assume a NATO attack then it must be at least 5 or more years ahead.
Till then I see Pakistan developing

1)ICBMs or atleast 2 staged BMs against which the efficiency of ABMs is greatly reduced.
2)Long range CMs against which no effective Defense is developed.
3)Super sonic CMs which China currently has.This missile if mounted on Subs can be very hard to intercept and Sub too is highly unlikely too be detected even by latest SONARS.



AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST EVEN IF THERE IS LESS THAN 5% CHANCE OF PAKISTANI MISSILES REACHING ISRAEL .IT WILL GIVE PAKISTAN A DETERRENT.

I DONT THINK THAT RIGHT NOW NATO OR US CAN 100% SUCCESSFULLY DENUKE PAKISTAN AND PROTECT ISRAEL IN CASE OF WAR.

IF THEY ARE WORKING ON THIS AND MIGHT GET 100% ASSURITY OF PROTECTION THEN REMEMBER PAKISTAN WILL ALSO IN FUTURE
DEVELOP MANY THINGS.


SO BOTTOM LINE YOU WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO SAY THAT WE cAN 10000% TAKE OUT PAK NUKES AND PROTECT ISRAEL IN CASE OF WAR.
That is sufficient for deterrent.

 

[MastanKhan]

Mosaba,

How is it that a 17 years old, who has possibly not earned a single ruppee through hard labour to buy a loaf of bread, who is possibly by every means dependant on his parents for the most of his life to provide a shelter and food----a young boy who will under normal pakistani circumstances may never live out and away from the shadows of his parents---possibly never in his life be free to make important decision of his life on his own---is so opinionated about strategic issues-----

So, my million dollar question is what makes teen pakistani boys knowitall.

Kid---remember one thing---whatever you have been saying has been told by the pakistanis for the last 60 years in one form or another. Guees what---if you see the results where paskistan is today---tells you that they were wrong in their analysis. Where does that put you!!!

Kid, you should use this board as a learning experience---there is a lots of unfiltered stuff here---so many people from so many different parts of the world with their unique experiences----let the frog get out of the well. There is a whole different world outside.

 

[maqsad]

I somewhat doubt pakistani subs can be counted on to launch SLBMs gainst anyone reliably. I was told that during the cold war the US and the USSR used to install listening devices of all types on the ocean and sea floorbeds in all parts of the world. Much of the peacetime patrol duty of submarines was to seek, identify and at times destroy the listening devices of the opposite side.

I'm quite sure the US and UK navies have littered much of the Arabian Sea with extremely stealthy listening devices and it would not surprise me if the Navy Seals have planted devices on or near the shoreline of almost every country in the Arabian Sea and the gulf too, especially near naval bases. Comparatively speaking the pak navy is like a baby just getting started. And on top of that those Augusta subs might well have time or signal activated tracking devices embedded in some part too who knows. So if there ever was a massive strike against the pak military the first targets would probably be subs on patrol and in harbor.

 

[MOSABJA]

I am not 17 that was a mistake in profile I hope to correct it.


I might be wrong but the talk was about Pakistan capabilities in terms of repelling any sort of attack.

No Jingoism.

I am not saying pakistan is sort of a super power a sort of untouchable.Not too much satisfied with the way we have come in 60 years.

But as Pakistan remains vulnerable.

One thing is for sure.First I dont see any US invasion but if some thing that sort happens its not an easy ride like Iraq or Afghanistan and well WHY WOULD THEY DO IT??
THEY DONT NEED TO AT THIS TIME???

We were just assuming.

 

[MOSABJA]

I somewhat doubt pakistani subs can be counted on to launch SLBMs gainst anyone reliably. I was told that during the cold war the US and the USSR used to install listening devices of all types on the ocean and sea floorbeds in all parts of the world. Much of the peacetime patrol duty of submarines was to seek, identify and at times destroy the listening devices of the opposite side.

I'm quite sure the US and UK navies have littered much of the Arabian Sea with extremely stealthy listening devices and it would not surprise me if the Navy Seals have planted devices on or near the shoreline of almost every country in the Arabian Sea and the gulf too, especially near naval bases. Comparatively speaking the pak navy is like a baby just getting started. And on top of that those Augusta subs might well have time or signal activated tracking devices embedded in some part too who knows. So if there ever was a massive strike against the pak military the first targets would probably be subs on patrol and in harbor.

Again I am not saying you are wrong.You might be right .

But in war time situations nothing can be said with 100% assurity that This would happen OR That.


Technological superiority is not JUST EVERY THING.

Remember the same Advance NATO could not find Yugoslavian Mini sub in small waters.
Remember in Vietnam how US was defeated.
In IRAQ the small,cheap IEDs with thermal sensors have rendered the Abraam and others use less..


WAR IS A RISKY BUSINESS??
Pakistan is a nuclear power.

I doubt Pakistan or NATO will be willing to take the risk!


Specially when there is one second mistake between life and death