Pak Navy able to repel border attack’

[Alphacharlie]

SAMs. ofcourse the fighters will be busy at the border. the deeper the indian navy gets the more of a harrasing war they will face! with SAMs,subs,orions and missile boats involved!


BUT THIS IS IF PN develops gawadar! until and unless it does that this sceanrio is useless!

I Like your reply. .......

But Being Realistic Orion Pilots will be Very Jittery .......
Rationale Being :-

a) SAM Cover is Not Every Where

b) Mig 29K/Su 30 MKI Baring Jags which are purely AShm Role will create Havoc.

 

[ice_man]

I Like your reply. .......

But Being Realistic Orion Pilots will be Very Jittery .......
Rationale Being :-

a) SAM Cover is Not Every Where

b) Mig 29K/Su 30 MKI Baring Jags which are purely AShm Role will create Havoc.

in war being jittery is not an option!

now let me reply to your two points you raised:


a) ORIONS won't operate away from SAM cover besides the coast of gawadar is almost into the arabian sea corridor so PN only aim will be to keep the merchant navy corridor open!

b) MIG29Ks/SU-30 MKIs(even though they will be used not for the navy but for air superiroirty roles) and jaguars will all have to face SAMs along with BVR missiles fired from the JF-17s in navy protection role. in which case you have to understand that fighters flying of land based airfields can have higher CAP time compared to fighters flying off the deck of a carrier or coming all the way across from bombay to gawadar with aireal refuelling somewhere over the indian ocean.

 

[farhan_9909]

Problem is the PN budget
less than a billion

and just 1 active shipyard(2 underconstuction)

if PN budget even crosses 1.5-2billions USD by 2015.than we can get some good vessels than and help building local ship building industry as well

economy is the only factor tht is getting into a new era be it there air force or navy

 

[Alphacharlie]

in war being jittery is not an option!

now let me reply to your two points you raised:


a) ORIONS won't operate away from SAM cover besides the coast of gawadar is almost into the arabian sea corridor so PN only aim will be to keep the merchant navy corridor open!

b) MIG29Ks/SU-30 MKIs(even though they will be used not for the navy but for air superiroirty roles) and jaguars will all have to face SAMs along with BVR missiles fired from the JF-17s in navy protection role. in which case you have to understand that fighters flying of land based airfields can have higher CAP time compared to fighters flying off the deck of a carrier or coming all the way across from bombay to gawadar with aireal refuelling somewhere over the indian ocean.

Thank you for your Reply - However, your Assertion is Rejected & Unrealistic

 

[ice_man]

Problem is the PN budget
less than a billion

and just 1 active shipyard(2 underconstuction)

if PN budget even crosses 1.5-2billions USD by 2015.than we can get some good vessels than and help building local ship building industry as well

economy is the only factor tht is getting into a new era be it there air force or navy

yes that along with the fact that our Navy is sitting only at karachi port and that puts all our eggs in one basket! we need to develop gawadar as our naval headquarters! further away from a stone throw distance from bombay!

 

[DARKY]

If you consider development of Gwadar... you must consider the possibility that IN would base a few batteries of Brahmos LACM in Chabbar[Iran]... along with aircover... of Akash SAM batteries and possibly a Kolkata class ship along with a Kilo/Scorpene just to safe guard its interests in the area... with half a squadron or so Mig29K maintaining a consistent presence there.

The biggest drawback of PN is that it has bases in the right areas but lack the weapons to arm those bases to have any substantial effect on enemy forces.... you talk about orions flying under SAM cover.. but Orion is an Anti-Submarine warfare plane... which would require SAM cover in mid seas... while PN hardly has any Air-defense destroyer to provide such cover.

Similarly it would require an air wing to keep away the Su30s, Mig29Ks and Jaguars away from firing range... but all it has is the old Mirages which hardly have much air-air capabilities against those modern 4.5gen fighters... PN can lend a few JF-17s from PAF.. but that would surely reduce its strength against the IAF... which is already down.

 

[farhan_9909]

Gwadar and qasim shipyard are under construction

don't know about gwadar shipyard update but few months befor someone posted about the qasim shipyard being almost completed

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

If you consider development of Gwadar... you must consider the possibility that IN would base a few batteries of Brahmos LACM in Chabbar[Iran]... along with aircover... of Akash SAM batteries and possibly a Kolkata class ship along with a Kilo/Scorpene just to safe guard its interests in the area... with half a squadron or so Mig29K maintaining a consistent presence there.

The biggest drawback of PN is that it has bases in the right areas but lack the weapons to arm those bases to have any substantial effect on enemy forces.... you talk about orions flying under SAM cover.. but Orion is an Anti-Submarine warfare plane... which would require SAM cover in mid seas... while PN hardly has any Air-defense destroyer to provide such cover.

Similarly it would require an air wing to keep away the Su30s, Mig29Ks and Jaguars away from firing range... but all it has is the old Mirages which hardly have much air-air capabilities against those modern 4.5gen fighters... PN can lend a few JF-17s from PAF.. but that would surely reduce its strength against the IAF... which is already down.

didnt knew that your good at joking as well
India has nothing to do with chahbahar port..neither india can do anything
india in the past wanted to fund it but as usuall except tajikistan non of the central asian countries has good relations with Iran..and tajikistan themselves Expressed interest in excess to gwadar.

YOu think iran will allow you to station your ships in chahbahar?

 

[farhan_9909]

1.The Following Distances
Gwadar to Kandahar:494.12 miles and Chahbahar to Kandahar:535.19 miles
Gwadar to Kabul:768.81 miles and Chahbahar to Kabul:817.61 miles
Gwadar to Samarkand:1040.38 miles and Chahbahar to Samarkand:1058.62miles
Gwadar to Alamaty:1501.39 miles and Chahbahar to Almaty:1545.87 miles
and the list goes on and on.Except for Herat and Ashgabat Gwadar Has Got A Distance Advantage With Most Of The Major Cities In Central Asia Up To Omsk In Central Russia.
2.Gwadar is A Natural Deep Sea Port Unlike Chahbahar So It Can Handle Panamax and Cape Size Ships.Shipping Companies Love Deep Sea Ports
3.These Days Iran Faces Severe Sanctions.Even In The Best Of Times, It Faces Multiple Trade Restrictions.Inspite Of All The Difficulties Pakistan is Still a Major Non NATO Ally.When It Comes To Choice Western Companies Would Definitely Prefer Gwadar.
4.Chinese Did Not Invest Billions of Dollars in Gwadar to Start Trading in Chahbahar.Once Peace Is Stored in The Region You Can Bet That The Fastest Growing Economy In The World Will Start Trading Through Here.
I Concede That In The Short Term Chahbahar Will Succeed Because Of Peace and Stability In Iran as Well As Fast Developing Infrastructure.But In The Long Run Gwadar Definitely Enjoys Many Advantages Over Chahbahar

 

[farhan_9909]

if we exclude afghanistan and central asia

alone the china has trade with middle eastern countries upto 200+billions USD(more than the central asian total GDP's combined)

china has took the gwadar port responsibility few months before..
now add to that central asian countries with no good relations with iran.

Gwadar future is way too much bright

and i would thanks india some 1trillions times if they shift supply of goods to afghanistan from pakistan to iran,
they pay nothing,screw our infra/roads and possible reason for USA interventions with pakistans

 

[ice_man]

If you consider development of Gwadar... you must consider the possibility that IN would base a few batteries of Brahmos LACM in Chabbar[Iran]... along with aircover... of Akash SAM batteries and possibly a Kolkata class ship along with a Kilo/Scorpene just to safe guard its interests in the area... with half a squadron or so Mig29K maintaining a consistent presence there.

The biggest drawback of PN is that it has bases in the right areas but lack the weapons to arm those bases to have any substantial effect on enemy forces.... you talk about orions flying under SAM cover.. but Orion is an Anti-Submarine warfare plane... which would require SAM cover in mid seas... while PN hardly has any Air-defense destroyer to provide such cover.

Similarly it would require an air wing to keep away the Su30s, Mig29Ks and Jaguars away from firing range... but all it has is the old Mirages which hardly have much air-air capabilities against those modern 4.5gen fighters... PN can lend a few JF-17s from PAF.. but that would surely reduce its strength against the IAF... which is already down.

Firstly IRAN will play neutral under the cicrumstances of war & not join india or pakistan. meaning pakistan will face threat from only its eat.


Secondly the PN aim is to keep the merchant navy corridor open from the gulf required to supply Pakistan with oil. The strategic location of Gawadar with the middle east makes the sea corridor small hence a ground based SAM will be ample enough to detter the enemy in such a confined space!

surely we are talking about the tip of the arabian sea not the indian ocean! PN role is to defend not to go out in the open seas and face the indian Navy in an all out battle.

 

[DARKY]

Gwadar and qasim shipyard are under construction

don't know about gwadar shipyard update but few months befor someone posted about the qasim shipyard being almost completed

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan




didnt knew that your good at joking as well
India has nothing to do with chahbahar port..neither india can do anything
india in the past wanted to fund it but as usuall except tajikistan non of the central asian countries has good relations with Iran..and tajikistan themselves Expressed interest in excess to gwadar.

YOu think iran will allow you to station your ships in chahbahar?

NEW DELHI: India is weighing three investment options in Iran's Chabahar port with a total investment of Rs 300-400 crore. India's role would be crucial in the second phase of the port's expansion and New Delhi is looking at Chabahar as a gateway to Central Asia, bypassing Pakistan.

Ministry sources said that two teams of experts — constituted by Indian Ports Association (IPA) — had visited the port and identified the scope for investment. "Almost 70% work in the first phase has been completed. Iran has invested about $340 million in the venture. Our role would be in the second phase. We have submitted the three investment options to the ministry of external affairs," said a shipping ministry official.

One of the three investment options is to construct and operate a multi-purpose cargo berth at Chabahar with an investment of about $20 million, sources said. The second option is to build a container terminal at an estimated investment of $30 million. And, the third plan is to develop yet another bigger container terminal at a cost of about $65 million.

"The government has to take call on how these projects can be executed, though public-private-partnership (PPP) is likely to be the preferred mode. The government might have to put some "risk capital" for smooth execution of these projects," a senior ministry official said.

India's interest in the Iranian port is not only to get a direct access to Central Asia, but also to facilitate import of minerals from Afghanistan via Chabahar. Iran has plans to expand the port in five phases and to ramp up its capacity to 20 million tons by 2020.

India eyeing Iran's Chabahar port for direct access to Central Asia - Tehran Times

At least read what your media says.

Gwadar may lose business to Iranian port of Chabahar

Thursday, February 26, 2009
By Hina Mahgul Rind


KARACHI: The Gwadar Port that was envisioned to become a trans-shipment port and shipping hub for the landlocked Central Asian States (CAS), Afghanistan and Western China may lose this opportunity to the fast developing Iranian port of Chabahar, a Gwadar Port official said.

http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=164529

Govt urged to scrap Gwadar port deal


The presentation said, “The government and the Port of Singapore Authority
are in default of commitments. No commercial vessel has arrived at Gwadar
port in three years and there is no possibility of any docking there for many
years.”

Search Results govt urged to scrap gwadar port deal hh | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia | DAWN.COM

Chabbar has been taking its baby steps while people like you listen mullah news and radio to make your beds wet about Gwadar.

 

[DARKY]

Firstly IRAN will play neutral under the cicrumstances of war & not join india or pakistan. meaning pakistan will face threat from only its eat.


Secondly the PN aim is to keep the merchant navy corridor open from the gulf required to supply Pakistan with oil. The strategic location of Gawadar with the middle east makes the sea corridor small hence a ground based SAM will be ample enough to detter the enemy in such a confined space!

surely we are talking about the tip of the arabian sea not the indian ocean! PN role is to defend not to go out in the open seas and face the indian Navy in an all out battle.

Only If wars happened the way people thought about it... there would be no war at all... all options remain open... ordinary civilians can remain in delusion by media... while RAW is already operating from Fukhoor and Ayani near Afghan border and Chabbar near Baluchistan.

You mean you'll base your ground based SAMs near the Gulf and fly your Orions there leaving the rest of the cost open for attacks from subs, and other surface combatants ultimately leading to an amphibious assault If the conflict persists.
Besides that I would like to which Ground based SAM are you talking about ?

Similarly Indian navy doesn't need to get near Pakistan to destroy its assets it can do that easily from 350-400km away.. count Brahmos, Nirbhay, Dhanush, K-15 etc.. land attack missiles which have ranges over 350km.

 

[ice_man]

Only If wars happened the way people thought about it... there would be no war at all... all options remain open... ordinary civilians can remain in delusion by media... while RAW is already operating from Fukhoor and Ayani near Afghan border and Chabbar near Baluchistan.

You mean you'll base your ground based SAMs near the Gulf and fly your Orions there leaving the rest of the cost open for attacks from subs, and other surface combatants ultimately leading to an amphibious assault If the conflict persists.
Besides that I would like to which Ground based SAM are you talking about ?

Similarly Indian navy doesn't need to get near Pakistan to destroy its assets it can do that easily from 350-400km away.. count Brahmos, Nirbhay, Dhanush, K-15 etc.. land attack missiles which have ranges over 350km.

1) IRAN no matter how much you wish to get iran involved it WILL NOT get involved! reason is IF iran tries to involve itself the WHOLE ARAB world will stand behind Pakistan due to their own fears of IRAN! this is a guarntee that is given! so getting IRAN to be involved will lead to india shooting itself in the foot!


2) by making the gawadar port our main HUB for naval as well as merchant shipping karachi port will become what gawadar currently is! surely india won't waste time and effort hitting a port that is not the main artery of Pakistan supplies? Hence a few fighters along with a few SAMs can keep the indians engaged in karachi harbour! look at it this way in case of a war tomorrow will india try to attack gawadar or karachi? ofcourse karachi because all the shipping happens at karachi!!

3) currently we have HQ-9s and HQ-18s as well as FT2000s all have a decent range. i am sure indian flotilla won't be shooting from 400kms out! they will be more liekly to miss from that far out. indians would surely try to increase their hit percentage by moving in closer exposing them to the SAMs


recall the yom kippr war where the egyptians backed by their SAMs crossed over the suez and stopped. So that anything israel throws at them in terms of air power would be pray to their SAM envelope!

the minute the Egypitans stepped outside their SAM barriers and deeper into the Sinai desert they lost the advantage to the israelis!

 

[OrionHunter]

Know the difference between...defence and offence...
Indian navy can lanch an attack on Pakistan....Pakistan navy cant do that to India..
But PN can launch a defensive strike on an attacking armada....

You've got two ports. We have 14! Knock those two off with stand off weapons and your oil refineries near them...End of story! We don't need 'armadas' to put your naval ports out of commission. And your admirals know it too well!

Cheers!

 

[alimobin memon]

1) IRAN no matter how much you wish to get iran involved it WILL NOT get involved! reason is IF iran tries to involve itself the WHOLE ARAB world will stand behind Pakistan due to their own fears of IRAN! this is a guarntee that is given! so getting IRAN to be involved will lead to india shooting itself in the foot!


2) by making the gawadar port our main HUB for naval as well as merchant shipping karachi port will become what gawadar currently is! surely india won't waste time and effort hitting a port that is not the main artery of Pakistan supplies? Hence a few fighters along with a few SAMs can keep the indians engaged in karachi harbour! look at it this way in case of a war tomorrow will india try to attack gawadar or karachi? ofcourse karachi because all the shipping happens at karachi!!

3) currently we have HQ-9s and HQ-18s as well as FT2000s all have a decent range. i am sure indian flotilla won't be shooting from 400kms out! they will be more liekly to miss from that far out. indians would surely try to increase their hit percentage by moving in closer exposing them to the SAMs


recall the yom kippr war where the egyptians backed by their SAMs crossed over the suez and stopped. So that anything israel throws at them in terms of air power would be pray to their SAM envelope!

the minute the Egypitans stepped outside their SAM barriers and deeper into the Sinai desert they lost the advantage to the israelis!

Ok I know We recently bought 10 AESA 3D radar's dont know their name ( mention it anyone) which have 400km detection range and altitude of 100,000+ft but since when we have Hq9 , Hq18 and Ft2000 the best SAM we have now is SPADA 2000 on the basis of tech...