Pak may never try another Kargil, but it could get worse

[Rafi]

The fact is the indians ran out of coffins and then their politicians tried to make money by buying coffins and then trying to make money on them.

This is the respect indians have for their soldiers, we felt bad about the rotting corpses, we were willing to ceasefire for their removal, at this point they were in a bad way, with big fat maggots devouring the bodies, and dogs and rats eating them also. Looking at the pictures and letters these soldiers had, was one of the saddest things, especially letters to wives and girlfriends.

 

[Darth Vader]

LOL INDIANS WON are JoKIng as indians Said 30000 vs 5000 lol and look at the lost of PAF AND INDIAN ARMY
Casualties and losses
Indian Official Figures: AND Pakistan
527 killed 438 Shaheed
1,363 wounded
1 POW
1 fighter jet shot down
1 fighter jet crashed
1 helicopter shot down

well Now u can see Pakistan was jUst not able to Stop the insurgve but they defeated them and iNdian army just not only suffer the heavy loss But Pakistan Now Also Hold the highest Points of the Kargil now they are well defended when Pakistan wants can beat the **** out Of indian army in kashmir

My fav Line OF Kargil when Indian major said his mans are dying their like dogs

 

[timetravel]

It was a Indian victory on diplomatic front and strategic front.

war started with the aims:

capture Kargil + Bring the region into publicity + show how the LOCAL people are engaged in war against India.

At end of war, consequences:

capture Kargil: failed
Bring the region into publicity: It didnt cause any problems for India but on contrary it caused lot of bad press and publicity for Pakistan
show how the LOCAL people are engaged in war against India: It was proved that PA is fighting the war, and then finally Pakistan has to agree to withdraw troops publicly.

I dont see them meeting any objective in the war, but on the contrary loosing soldiers and also got bad name across the world.Also most importantly it strengthened India's case that the insurgency in Kashmir is due to infiltrators and their support from Pakistan.

Mush made a big mistake in thinking that India would take it lying down and accept the loss of kargil. IF he had thought once about the conventional disparity b/w India and Pakistan he would have stayed away from such plan. To be blunt he did a great disservice to Pakistan and his plan was based more on wishful thinking then any real sense. India was and is always going to get into full war mode to protect their part of Kashmir.

at the end of day he not only lost kargil but also spoiled the the very good amosphere that was building up for the betterment of India -Pakistan relations. Instead of being made the Pak president he should be tried and put behind bars.

 

[illusion8]

Under immense diplomatic pressure and international isolation, Pakistani political establishment's backbone gave way and the fighters were ordered to disengage & fall back. Is that so hard to understand?

One aspect is your claim that political establishment never knew of this misadventure, secondly the Pak government claimed that they were terrorists not PA, so who or what brought on this immense diplomatic and international isolation to roost?

 

[INDIC]

@Rafi
Exaggerating the incident. Do you also feel bad that your country disowned dead soldiers in Kargil and your country never knew how many Pakistanis sacrificed themselves for Pakistan in Kargil.

 

[Mav3rick]

The problem with Pakistan's perspective is that due to the whole propoganda of Martial race and superiority of Pakistani military, you folks consider Military as a special and a separate entity from the political leadership of your country. So you consider that Mushy won the Kargil war but the gains were squandered away by your politicians. Where as this mentality itself is the single largest reason for the mess Pakistan finds itself in. For last 60 years, Military in Pakistan has always had their own agenda which they force. Whenever the civilian / democratic agendas become too diverge from theirs, they simply over throw the govt and establish a military dictatorship. That's why mostly MIlitary and Political leadership is hardly ever working in tandem in Pakistan.

We have not been as blessed in our leadership as India or perhaps even Bangladesh. Most of our sincerest leaders were lost very soon after independence, some to assassinations including the father of the nation, and politically we just could never recover. Even today our politicians are the biggest landlords and Sardars of their tribes/areas instead of educated folks from the masses representing the masses. Military intervention is always highly appreciated by the educated, the aware of the country. Too bad, even the military could not provide us a clean political setup with loyal civilian leadership.

Kargil was yet another example of the same. It was really Mushy who screwed the pooch by 1. trying to hog the glory by keeping the political leadeship out of the loop and 2. by not invovling the Air force to sustain the gains (again glory hog) and 3. Finally getting caught with his pants down when his conversation got recorded and paraded in front of the international community.

There was a reason not to deploy Airforce or military on vis-a-vis basis with India. It was to gain international sympathy for Kashmir cause by declaring that the operation was launched by Mujahideen, which was mostly true. The cause was crushed by NS when he succumbed to pressure by Clinton. No conversation was ever recorded that could embarrass Military or Musharraf.

And a military plan that has to hide behind the guise of so the called Mujahiddins is not really a military plan.. More of a theft attempt which got cuaght out. Had he accepted from day 1 that they were his men, I would have whole hearted agreed to it being a good plan.. But alas it was a plain and simple chindi Chori that got him caught red handed.. Frankly the 2nd biggest mistake from Pakistan on the Kashmir issue

How could an attempt to reclaim what one owns be considered a theft attempt? See this was the brilliance of the plan. If Kashmiri freedom fighters were the ones who launched the operation then who could call it anything but an attempt to gain freedom?

Personal Attacks ?? Tell me.. Didnt Mushy fail in 1987.. Again in 1989 and then in Kargil??

You want to speak on that, please start a thread and point me there.

 

[Rafi]

The fact is the indians ran out of coffins and then their politicians tried to make money by buying coffins and then trying to make money on them.

This is the respect indians have for their soldiers, we felt bad about the rotting corpses, we were willing to ceasefire for their removal, at this point they were in a bad way, with big fat maggots devouring the bodies, and dogs and rats eating them also. Looking at the pictures and letters these soldiers had, was one of the saddest things, especially letters to wives and girlfriends.

The brave soldiers were taken in a garbage truck.

 

[karan.1970]

There was a reason not to deploy Airforce or military on vis-a-vis basis with India. It was to gain international sympathy for Kashmir cause by declaring that the operation was launched by Mujahideen, which was mostly true. The cause was crushed by NS when he succumbed to pressure by Clinton. No conversation was ever recorded that could embarrass Military or Musharraf.

Which was stupid because then he got caught out about the involvement of Pakistani security forces. The men on the mountain tops were found out to be NLI men. Pakistan first refused to even accept their dead bodies but later succumbed to international ridicule. About the conversation, well you can deny it all you want, but at the end of it, it was that recording that resulted in Pakistan PM being summoned to USA, getting a dressing down by the American President and accepting that it was really Pakistani security forces that were involved. The claim that the operation was launched by Mujahiddins was really the white lie that got caught out and resulted in the rubbishing of Pakistan's stand on Kashmir. You do know that many NLI men were awarded gallantary awards by Pakistani govt for Kargil operation.. Last I checked NLI is not a Mujahiddin setup..

How could an attempt to reclaim what one owns be considered a theft attempt? See this was the brilliance of the plan. If Kashmiri freedom fighters were the ones who launched the operation then who could call it anything but an attempt to gain freedom?

But they were not.. And that's why today there are no takers in most of the world when Pakistan claims the bogey man of Non State Actors..

 

[third eye]

The brave soldiers were taken in a garbage truck.

..while those from Pak were disowned by the nation that sent them in to die.

 

[Bhairava]

@Rafi
Exaggerating the incident. Do you also feel bad that your country disowned dead soldiers in Kargil and your country never knew how many Pakistanis sacrificed themselves for Pakistan in Kargil.

How can any self-respecting country abandon its martyrs and disown them ?

I cant start to imagine the anguish and grief the families of those martyrs would have gone through at this insult.

Or is it because most of the dead were from Gilgit Baltistan and not Punjab ?

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

another hindustany masterpiece

 

[Mav3rick]

One aspect is your claim that political establishment never knew of this misadventure, secondly the Pak government claimed that they were terrorists not PA, so who or what brought on this immense diplomatic and international isolation to roost?

You are most likely retarded, not a personal attack but logical deduction after analysis of your post because:

1. I never claimed that the political establishment was not aware of the plan, the plan was on a need to know basis and the highest echelons of the civilian Government were well aware and a part of the plan.

2. Pakistani Government never declares Kashmiri freedom fighters as 'terrorists'. Nor can a freedom fighter be considered a terrorist.

 

[Rafi]

And I cannot imagine the anguish and pain - of brave soldiers being bought home in garbage trucks, full of turds.

 

[Bhairava]

Pakistani PoWs from the Kargil War - Part 1 - YouTube

Pakistani PoWs from the Kargil War - Part 2, The Truth's out - YouTube

 

[Mav3rick]

Which was stupid because then he got caught out about the involvement of Pakistani security forces. The men on the mountain tops were found out to be NLI men. Pakistan first refused to even accept their dead bodies but later succumbed to international ridicule. About the conversation, well you can deny it all you want, but at the end of it, it was that recording that resulted in Pakistan PM being summoned to USA, getting a dressing down by the American President and accepting that it was really Pakistani security forces that were involved. The claim that the operation was launched by Mujahiddins was really the white lie that got caught out and resulted in the rubbishing of Pakistan's stand on Kashmir. You do know that many NLI men were awarded gallantary awards by Pakistani govt for Kargil operation.. Last I checked NLI is not a Mujahiddin setup..

Did you even bother to check the history of NLI? They were never a part of the regular infantry until after superb performance in the Kargil 'conflict'. Secondly, can anybody dispute that Mujahideen were also there?

But they were not.. And that's why today there are no takers in most of the world when Pakistan claims the bogey man of Non State Actors..

Can anybody blame Pakistan for the plan albeit fundamentally illegal? Can Pakistan process the freedom of Kashmir with India by any other means? Can Pakistan, or even India for that matter, afford a full scale war?

How do we find a solution then? The aim of Kargil was to gain international political support for Kashmir cause and to eventually force India, with the help of international diplomacy, to negotiate the fate of Kashmir once and for all. Perhaps, that would have been better for all of us.