Pak may never try another Kargil, but it could get worse

[nair]

Pakistani Estimates:
Strength 5,000
453 was killed
665+ wounded[/QUOTE] .... Does this includes the soldiers we buried?.. i mean the brave one's disowned by your Army?

 

[kumarkumar1867]

I agree with most points but this drama about India being the peaceful nation and Pakistan being the aggressors is bullshit. The root of all wars between Pakistani and India lie in aggression and hypocrite attitude of India. Kargil can not be understood without looking at the bigger picture of which it is a part. This Kargil region has traded hands a number of times, in the aftermath of the number of wars we've had with India.

Kashmir was and is an unjust occupation, one from a number of remnants of the partition. India's access to Kashmir was maintained by denying Pakistan Firozpur, which was a Muslim majority area, and belonged to Pakistan if the principles the partition was supposed to be carried out under were to be followed(Firozpur would also have given Pakistan one well-supplied garrison, which the British were against - it is a historic fact that British artillery guns were dumped off the Karachi sea port, rather than given to Pak).

Taking advantage of our weak military and financial position, our adversary maintained a hypocritical stance, occupying Kashmir because the Hindu ruler of a Muslim majority area voted for India, while occupying Hyderabad where a Muslim ruler of a Hindu-majority ruler voted for Pakistan.

Kashmir was a princely state,it had right to remain independent or even merge with Pakistan or India. The Muslim majority region implies Pakistan was limited only to Bristish India not to Kashmir.
Again It was your side which used non-state actors & tribals to annex kashmir first. The wild tribals who when entered kashmir forgot the military purpose and started rapes & loots of Kashmiris. Raja did right thing to save his kingdom & population.

Many other areas, such as Junagadh and Manavadar also voted for Pakistan, but were anexed in utter disregard of the principles of the partition by India, because we were weak. The complete and utter lack of any concrete British response or action to all this can only be taken as evidence of their impartiality in hindsight. Their last viceroy was commanding British forces in Kashmir, while the British officers in Pakistan refused to follow orders.

Such bitter things have happened with India too... we too lost some hindu dominated regions like Sindh, Chittagong, etc to Pakistan. Kashmir was independent princely state so who will access it was not important during planning of territories during partition.
Its not because of weakness of any side it was because there was no solution for well defined muslim & hindu nations as Hindu-Muslim communities were thoroughly mixed in British India.

How can any self-respecting nation accept such treachery. Whenever we are in a weak position, this country tries to victimize it. From 1965, where they crossed the international border and attacked at what they thought was a defenseless Lahore after Pakistan's activities at a ceasefire line(the Israelis broke their ceasefire and redefined the areas under their control three times, under this same UN that berates us). In '71 they again crossed an international border and split off our province - and the mukthi bahini were trained on Indian soil. In the 80's when the Soviets were amassing armour across our western border the Indians followed suit on our east, trying to take advantage of our weak situation again. Even now, weaponry from Indian ordinance factories is frequently recovered in the tribal areas.

Read about 1965 war, India never tried to cross international border to initiate a war it was Operation Gibraltor a favour returned back by IA by marching till Lahore.

How am I supposed to feel when SU-30s with full armament cross my country's international border after a hostile country conducted a ridiculous sham attack in some hotel in Bombay where 7 men take over a 300-room building for almost a week(with the Indian police/military unable to make a move... comeon, THREE-HUNDRED rooms, those 7 men couldn't even logistically cover an area half that big) and the concrete evidence they come up with to blame Pak for that is that the terrorists carried *sacks* full of Pakistani products(sufi soap, rooh-Afza).

They were not covering entire 300 rooms but they had advantage of having hundreds of hostages & of covering crucial exits & entry points on different floors.
If you have 100s of hostages trapped in building & you are unsure of positions of 7 terrorists its difficult to attack any of room be it 300 or 1000.

Every single time our adversary has gotten an opportunity to stab us in the back, they have done it. Exactly according to the chankiya philosophy that they follow.

First, Back Stabbing suits with PA/ISI & GOP. Kargil, 1947 Kashmir annexure, OBL raid, Gifting part of Kashmir to China,Operation Gibraltor, denying formation of Govt to Shaikh Mujeeb despite of majority win in elections & so on.

Second, Acharya Chankya was not a military specialist or commander like Ghauri or Ghazanavi he is known for economical-political-diplomatical-socialistic philosophy & writings. Same philosophy we follow & our policies reflects. Any problem??

How is any Pakistani supposed to feel when they look at this colorful history of deceit. India is perhaps the only country in the world that has disputes with each and every country surrounding it

..............
Are we responsible for mess in Afghanistan??
Are we responsible for terror across Globe??
Are we responsible for brainwashing our citizens & transporting them in kashmir/mumbai to attack our neighbours civilians??
Are we responsible for brainwashing/training/armouring & exploiting kashmiri kids for bloodsheds??

 

[ajtr]

After 10 years i ve still have doubts about those taped telephone conversation of Gen.Musharraf speakingto his commanders in pakistan..
1. was is chinese Intelligence which recorded it and passed onto indians(As per najam sethi in one of his kargil talk show program)
2.Was it Israeli mossad?(some sources points to israeli intelligence help here)
3.Was it RAW (as per indian sources).if it was RAW i must say they have pretty good sigint.
4.was it usa.(as per strobe talbott)

There are still doubts about the origination of those tapes actually who did it and why?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Ah good, you'd feel right at home and comfortable then because you obviously don't have much IQ.


Alas, if only any part of you was human.

These are points I am happy to concede. Anything to humour a lunatic.

 

[Jackdaws]

Well, it is apparent, India got F*CKED and multiple times, almost every time by a country much smaller then herself (except 1 time when the raping country was bigger ). Should it matter then after every sexual violation India runs to the world and cries how she was raped by Pakistan and Pakistan is rebuked?

And independence of Bangladesh was a matter of time right from the beginning, half a country here and half there.....what kind of partition was that anyway?





You shied away at the mention of neutral arbitration in 1965 and you have 7-8 times more typing hands and speaking tongues than Pakistan so most of the one sided views have been planted. Just think logically, if you can, why would India accept a stalemate if she wasn't getting her *** handed to her by Pakistan? Pakistan, on the other hand, was once again isolated diplomatically and forced to accept the stalemate despite being in a position to claim the rest of Kashmir once and for all. I remember how the Army resented the decision of pulling back when they were on the verge of severing Kashmir from India while at the same time were holding their own country. Funny enough, it was also India that accepted the stalemate conditions a day before Pakistan did!

Besides, what would you have fought on with? You had almost exhausted all ammo.





You call Pakistan's taking over Indian positions as chindichori but is that not exactly what you did in Siachin? And after that severe *** kicking, I guess your brains are still too hot to handle ground realities.......I know that the mind tries to erase the most embarrassing of moments or horrific incidents, it's the same case with Indians. The mauling that you took in Kargil is too much to digest.



Ah good, you'd feel right at home and comfortable then because you obviously don't have much IQ.





Alas, if only any part of you was human.

1. Err - you didn't seem so keen to let it go of the "oh-so-far" East Pakistan in December 1971. You signed a document - it was called "Treaty of Surrender". And you surrendered to India. 91,000 of your "bravest" troops who took great pleasure in raping and mass murdering your own citizenry - instead of fighting on till the last man as "Tiger" Niazi had promised decided - "Hey - this time our opponents have guns - where's the fun in that? Let's surrender!" More than a rape sounds like self-hijrafication.


2. 1965 - LOL. Read neutral accounts. It was not India which was running out of ammo, it was Pakistan. This is because you were not only violating the Ceasefire Line in Kashmir, but were also violating CENTO and SEATO terms by using weapons donated to you by the Americans. Yea, and your Army is really well known to listen to its civilian leadership that they pulled back! Except, Ayub Khan was not a civilian leader of Pakistan, he was a self-crowned Field Marshal. If you are going to blow smoke, at least back it up with facts.

3. Siachen - The whole area was unoccupied and India was fine with the status quo until Pakistan in its infinite wisdom starting giving visas and conducting expeditions to an unoccupied area which was never really demarcated. Comparing that to Kargil where you invaded demarcated territory and violated the Shimla agreement is downright laughable.

4. Mauling in Kargil? Hahahaha - Your Prime Minister running like a slave to Bill Clinton asking him to intervene and stop the Indians was a mauling to Indians how? That summer of 1999 - it was not just Monica Lewinsky who was on her knees in front of Clinton; it was Prime Minister of Pakistan too...

 

[Joe Shearer]

After 10 years i ve still have doubts about those taped telephone conversation of Gen.Musharraf speakingto his commanders in pakistan..
1. was is chinese Intelligence which recorded it and passed onto indians(As per najam sethi in one of his kargil talk show program)
2.Was it Israeli mossad?(some sources points to israeli intelligence help here)
3.Was it RAW (as per indian sources).if it was RAW i must say they have pretty good sigint.
4.was it usa.(as per strobe talbott)

There are still doubts about the origination of those tapes actually who did it and why?

As far as I know, only the American NSA has the capability to do this.

 

[Jackdaws]

After 10 years i ve still have doubts about those taped telephone conversation of Gen.Musharraf speakingto his commanders in pakistan..
1. was is chinese Intelligence which recorded it and passed onto indians(As per najam sethi in one of his kargil talk show program)
2.Was it Israeli mossad?(some sources points to israeli intelligence help here)
3.Was it RAW (as per indian sources).if it was RAW i must say they have pretty good sigint.
4.was it usa.(as per strobe talbott)

There are still doubts about the origination of those tapes actually who did it and why?

From what I understand it was the Chinese who got them. They did not wish to embarrass Pakistan directly so they handed them to the Americans who in turn gave it to the Indians.

 

[ajtr]

We have always agreed that it was a diplomatic victory for India after a military defeat. You did win, but you had external help.

How can diplomatic victory be possible after millitary defeat?Its like saying allied powers won WW-2 militarily but germany won axis powers won diplomaticall with germany divided and japan nuked and occupied.

Or its it the case that only military victories and diplomatic defeats only takes place in pakistan's cases only

you mean to say that pakistani leaders from Ayuub khan to nawaz sharief were such dumb that they always snatched diplomatic defeat from the jaws of military victory.

If such is the case then india must send its IAS to fight pakistan on the table and should disband the IA.

Paise ke paise bache aur bullets bhi jaya nahi huyee(keeping on my bania hat)

 

[ajtr]

As far as I know, only the American NSA has the capability to do this.

American i can understand as at that time india-usa ties were getting better with jaswant singh and strobe-talbott were seriously ironing out indo-usa friendship dialogue for 1st time in since 1947.

From what I understand it was the Chinese who got them. They did not wish to embarrass Pakistan directly so they handed them to the Americans who in turn gave it to the Indians.

Thats the same theory najam sethi said on his talk show.but i'm still unable to presume why would china under deng will help india in 1999??If one goes by this theory then its the 2nd time chinese would have helped indians in war against pakistan.First was during 1971 when even after being pushed and encouraged by nixon administration and herny Kissinger chinese did not attack from north to reduce pressure on east pakistan.even chinese intervention from north gen.niazi was desperately waiting for.

Really its very difficult to understand chinese ...Why did they help india (their enemy) against their freiend pakistan in war.
Many a time even many commentators from pakistan have pointed this out.If one goes by the chinese theory then one is not far off from the mark in saying that...

china's help to pakistan against india is just empty sloganeering........................


In that case threads like this are not mere propaganda they do hold some water and shred of truth..

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...pakistan-relations-really-not-good-shown.html

 

[kumarkumar1867]

Ever seen a young bull with cows in the same pen? Pakistan's attitude reminds me of the bull and treatment of India reminds me of the cow.....you know what the bull does to the cow, yeah?

That clearly glorifies your level of thoughts & social background you belong but I wont stoop to your level to make remark on entire Pakistan ( as I believe Majority are not like you).

But Your example reminded me of something. Do you know about Bullock Carts, a farmer drives a bull with a whip & bull carries Cart with all its strength.
Many times Farmers Dog walks under the cart & feels like all the load of bullock-cart is on its shoulders.

Reading comments of some deluded peoples reminds me of that Dog.

 

[Mav3rick]

****........10 Indian posts to every Pakistani post, don't you guys have anything better to do then to sit around making stories and defending them all day long?

 

[Capt.Popeye]

From what I understand it was the Chinese who got them. They did not wish to embarrass Pakistan directly so they handed them to the Americans who in turn gave it to the Indians.

None of that. That was ARC that bagged it. This was in the pre-NTRO days.

 

[karan.1970]

I wonder where you are getting the figure of 11 years from, I mean Musharraf published his book in 2002/3 I guess and Kargil was details are all over that book.

So now a commercial book written by Musharraf substitutes for a formal announcement from ISPR.. Read the OP of the thread I posted above...

The whole world know's Pakistan was forced to withdraw from Kargil so is that not acceptance???

The whole world also accuses Pakistan of a bunch of activities these days, which Pakistan denies.. Should we also believe the whole world's knowledge on that aspect too??

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

As far as I know, only the American NSA has the capability to do this.

Don't underestimate Israeli equipment

I recall there was large article in Hindu , from wikileaks about Indian obtaining some restricted surveillance and tapping equipment as such at exorbitant prices

 

[clmeta]

Dude its our territory. We will build a 1000 posts. What do you care?
Your PM went begging for America's protection once your army told him to take over.
LOL

****........10 Indian posts to every Pakistani post, don't you guys have anything better to do then to sit around making stories and defending them all day long?