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Pak may never try another Kargil, but it could get worse

For the Naysayers - ISPR posted a full list of Pakistani Soldiers KIA in the conflict. The number is 453:pakistan:

Can death be sleep, when life is but a dream,
And scenes of bliss pass as a phantom by?
The transient pleasures as a vision seem,
And yet we think the greatest pain's to die.


How strange it is that man on earth should roam,
And lead a life of woe, but not forsake
His rugged path; nor dare he view alone
His future doom which is but to awake.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
THE splendour falls on castle walls
And snowy summits old in story:
The long light shakes across the lakes,
And the wild cataract leaps in glory.

Blow, bugle, blow, set the wild echoes flying,
Blow, bugle; answer, echoes, dying, dying, dying.


O hark, O hear! how thin and clear,
And thinner, clearer, farther going!
O sweet and far from cliff and scar
The horns of Elfland faintly blowing!

Blow, let us hear the purple glens replying:
Blow, bugle; answer, echoes, dying, dying, dying.


O love, they die in yon rich sky,
They faint on hill or field or river:
Our echoes roll from soul to soul,
And grow for ever and for ever.

Blow, bugle, blow, set the wild echoes flying,
And answer, echoes, answer, dying, dying, dying.
 
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Just idle curiousity: I wonder how far this delusion will go. Now we have got down to the level where moderators, and Numerous other Pakistani commentators themselves, are not to be believed. Where will it stop?

You are trying to be as clever as fox to make one Pakistani against another but i said opinion of layman or moderator don't have as much weight as spokesperson of army or Army itself because they actually fought on ground and know ground realities and casualties better than others.

I understand why you are believing in numbers given by Oscar and why rejecting the statistic given by army itself..whatever suit to uncle Sam. so if tomorrow Oscar or any other moderator will say that Indiass death were 60000 then you will also believe in his opinions just because he is moderator? who told you that moderators cannot be wrong?
 
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Salute to the brave soldiers who fought and died for their country in the year of our Lord 1999 :pakistan:

All Things will Die
Clearly the blue river chimes in its flowing
Under my eye;
Warmly and broadly the south winds are blowing

Over the sky.
One after another the white clouds are fleeting;
Every heart this May morning in joyance is beating

Full merrily;
Yet all things must die.
The stream will cease to flow;
The wind will cease to blow;
The clouds will cease to fleet;
The heart will cease to beat;

For all things must die.
All things must die.

Spring will come never more.
O, vanity!
Death waits at the door.
See! our friends are all forsaking
The wine and the merrymaking.

We are call’d–we must go.
Laid low, very low,
In the dark we must lie.
The merry glees are still;

The voice of the bird
Shall no more be heard,
Nor the wind on the hill.
O, misery!
Hark! death is calling
While I speak to ye,
The jaw is falling,
The red cheek paling,
The strong limbs failing;

Ice with the warm blood mixing;
The eyeballs fixing.
Nine times goes the passing bell:
Ye merry souls, farewell.
The old earth
Had a birth,
As all men know,
Long ago.

And the old earth must die.
So let the warm winds range,
And the blue wave beat the shore;

For even and morn
Ye will never see
Thro’ eternity.

All things were born.
Ye will come never more,
For all things must die.


z.hashemi20111016175733577.jpg
 
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Karan we had the Official list of Pakistani KIA on the ISPR website, my son - it was 453 - and personally as the indian dead piled up, was heartbroken to think that their young wives and families would be receiving a dead soldier. We did not even have to aim, just point in the general direction and watch the indians fall.

No proud army can disown their own soldiers !!! India's neighbor did achieve that feet... My got- I just wonder what pain and anguish families of those dead "Mujahid" aka Pakistani soldiers would have gone through..
 
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No proud army can disown their own soldiers !!! India's neighbor did achieve that feet... My got- I just wonder what pain and anguish families of those dead "Mujahid" aka Pakistani soldiers would have gone through..

you have disowned many indians rotting in pakistani jails for 30+ years who came for espionage
 
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You are trying to be as clever as fox to make one Pakistani against another but i said opinion of layman or moderator don't have as much weight as spokesperson of army or Army itself because they actually fought on ground and know ground realities and casualties better than others.

I understand why you are believing in numbers given by Oscar and why rejecting the statistic given by army itself..whatever suit to uncle Sam. so if tomorrow Oscar or any other moderator will say that Indiass death were 60000 then you will also believe in his opinions just because he is moderator? who told you that moderators cannot be wrong?

<sigh>

Nobody, actually.

It is just that the moderators are chosen for their balanced personalities, and their ability to stay above controversy. One expects them to say reasonable things.

And, just for the record, it is not that I am clever. It is just that I take the trouble to find out.

you have disowned many indians rotting in pakistani jails for 30+ years who came for espionage

According to the Pakistani authorities,they do not exist in your jail records. Do you have information we can use?
 
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No proud army can disown their own soldiers !!! India's neighbor did achieve that feet... My got- I just wonder what pain and anguish families of those dead "Mujahid" aka Pakistani soldiers would have gone through..

You can cry louder and speak as much nonsense as you want about Pakistan army disown their own soldiers but If you ask the opinions of soldiers then they are proud and feel it honour to die for their mother land and their families are also willing to sacrifices their son for this land. Pakistani soldiers don't need your sympathies and crocodile tears

<sigh>

Nobody, actually.

It is just that the moderators are chosen for their balanced personalities, and their ability to stay above controversy. One expects them to say reasonable things.

And, just for the record, it is not that I am clever. It is just that I take the trouble to find out.

I never deny the good knowledge of moderators and their ability of having good discussion but you indians will agree with their views and will quote their posts when their posts support your Indian opinions while you will reject their opinions when it oppose to your opinions . This is your personal Indian criteria of credibility of Pakistani moderators :)
 
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LOL. When India can deploy thousands of soldiers, why can't thousand of Pakistani soldiers infiltrate. Can you show me the link of those dead soldiers.

:hitwall:

OMG!!!! Dude India deployed 30,000 soldiers during the whole conflict...Pakistan deployed some 4000 etc .... I am talking about the causalities! You can not have 4000 soldiers on top of few mountain tops...Indian 30K troops were NOT sitting on mountain peaks/posts for heaven's sake...They were at their "base" ...

How can you deploy 4000 soldiers on few "posts" on mountain peaks? Do you even know what does "post" mean here?

Atmost 450-480 Pakistani soldiers died during the whole conflict...

You can believe in fantasies though....

I can't understand your logic. Indian army failed Operation Gibraltar by attacking Lahore and ended in possession of more land area, our government never declared a victory for that as well as public holiday.

1965 war ended in a classic stalemate.. didn't it? Forcing a TEN TIMES bigger nation to sign a stalemate document is considered a victory.

"Possession of more land area" is a disputed claim ...

At the end of the day , Indians were forced to sign a stalemate document with Pakistan. # UndisputedFact!

Your OWN media back then called it "giving a walkover to Pakistan and defying the efforts of Indian military. A dishonor to the nation and its soldiers" ...and protests broke out in India. Go figure...

I was following the news everyday in 1999 and Indian army was always saying it is the tiger hills that matters most for us.

Back then , for India , probably yes. Tiger Hill is closer to NH-1D than other peaks...but this doesn't settle anything.... We still kept INDIAN strategic posts by the end of the war = Pakistani military victory.

You guys confuse military victory with political strategic victory...BOTH are very different... A military victory doesn't always translates to achieving your strategic political aim ... but it stays a "military victory" none the less..

Point 5353 is on LOC, doesn't matter much for us. It just a breath of air for Pakistanis to emphasis a lot on point 5353 after the debacle. ;)

The location of 5353 isn't the discussion here.... Pakistan Army occupied Indian posts and kept them by the end. India tried , may times , to take back these posts but failed.. cease fire occurred.
 
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I agree with most points but this drama about India being the peaceful nation and Pakistan being the aggressors is bullshit. The root of all wars between Pakistani and India lie in aggression and hypocrite attitude of India. Kargil can not be understood without looking at the bigger picture of which it is a part. This Kargil region has traded hands a number of times, in the aftermath of the number of wars we've had with India.

Kashmir was and is an unjust occupation, one from a number of remnants of the partition. India's access to Kashmir was maintained by denying Pakistan Firozpur, which was a Muslim majority area, and belonged to Pakistan if the principles the partition was supposed to be carried out under were to be followed(Firozpur would also have given Pakistan one well-supplied garrison, which the British were against - it is a historic fact that British artillery guns were dumped off the Karachi sea port, rather than given to Pak).

Taking advantage of our weak military and financial position, our adversary maintained a hypocritical stance, occupying Kashmir because the Hindu ruler of a Muslim majority area voted for India, while occupying Hyderabad where a Muslim ruler of a Hindu-majority ruler voted for Pakistan. Many other areas, such as Junagadh and Manavadar also voted for Pakistan, but were anexed in utter disregard of the principles of the partition by India, because we were weak. The complete and utter lack of any concrete British response or action to all this can only be taken as evidence of their impartiality in hindsight. Their last viceroy was commanding British forces in Kashmir, while the British officers in Pakistan refused to follow orders.

How can any self-respecting nation accept such treachery. Whenever we are in a weak position, this country tries to victimize it. From 1965, where they crossed the international border and attacked at what they thought was a defenseless Lahore after Pakistan's activities at a ceasefire line(the Israelis broke their ceasefire and redefined the areas under their control three times, under this same UN that berates us). In '71 they again crossed an international border and split off our province - and the mukthi bahini were trained on Indian soil. In the 80's when the Soviets were amassing armour across our western border the Indians followed suit on our east, trying to take advantage of our weak situation again. Even now, weaponry from Indian ordinance factories is frequently recovered in the tribal areas.

How am I supposed to feel when SU-30s with full armament cross my country's international border after a hostile country conducted a ridiculous sham attack in some hotel in Bombay where 7 men take over a 300-room building for almost a week(with the Indian police/military unable to make a move... comeon, THREE-HUNDRED rooms, those 7 men couldn't even logistically cover an area half that big) and the concrete evidence they come up with to blame Pak for that is that the terrorists carried *sacks* full of Pakistani products(sufi soap, rooh-Afza).

Every single time our adversary has gotten an opportunity to stab us in the back, they have done it. Exactly according to the chankiya philosophy that they follow. How is any Pakistani supposed to feel when they look at this colorful history of deceit. India is perhaps the only country in the world that has disputes with each and every country surrounding it.

Well Ali dude you hit a nail on the head there :D

Govremnet of India even made money from coffins

India's parliament has ground to a standstill after a fierce uproar broke out over reports the government tried to make money from coffins.

Opposition lawmakers on Tuesday demanded the government explain the purchase of overpriced coffins for Indian soldiers killed during a skirmish with Pakistan two years ago.

"Coffin thieves! coffin thieves!" opposition MPs shouted in both houses of parliament, forcing the suspension of both chambers without any progress on legislation, including a tough new anti-terrorism law.

"Soldiers shed blood, government takes commission," Reuters news agency cited opposition legislators as yelling.

The uproar follows a damning official report on the Defense Ministry's purchase of 500 coffins and 3,000 body bags from a U.S. firm during bloody fighting in 1999 to repel infiltrators from Pakistan in the Kargil region.

The government-appointed Comptroller and Auditor- General found the ministry had ordered the coffins at a very high price and without any preliminary evaluation.

Almost 500 Indian soldiers died on the icy slopes of Kargil slopes during a 10-week offensive to repel infiltrators from Pakistan in the summer of 1999.

The bloody faceoff brought the nuclear capable neighbors to the brink of a third war over Kashmir.

It was also India's first television war in which images of soldiers struggling on steep slopes to fight intruders entrenched on the heights were beamed to millions of homes.

The report released on Tuesday said the Defense Ministry contracted to buy the caskets and body bags at a cost of $1.5 million, but did not go through the proper process to buy them.

"Despite this being a new purchase, no acceptance test and evaluation was carried out," the report said.

The contract was later cancelled after the caskets arrived and were found to be too heavy and discarded.

"The transaction achieved little, other than to benefit the supplier," the report said.

Opposition lawmakers, waving copies of the report, demanded the government resign.

In the upper house, Foreign Minister Jaswant Singh offered a discussion on arms procurement policies, but was shouted down.

This is the second time this year that the Indian ministry has become embroiled in scandal.

In March, two journalists posing as arms dealers secretly filmed a string of politicians, military officials and bureaucrats accepting money for a fictitious arms deal.

The scandal -- which many said exposed a culture of corruption in the country's secretive defense ministry -- led to the resignation of George Fernandes as defense minister.

Fernandes, who was not directly implicated in the video, returned to the ministry in October

http://articles.cnn.com/2001-12-11/...ffins-indian-soldiers-body-bags?_s=PM:asiapcf
 
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Twice the losses, downed planes and helo and months of efforts from 30k strong army + 10 squadrons of airforce with NO military achievement over roughly 4k fighters, who had no support from Pakistan Army or PAF, until Pakistan withdrew is considered strategic victory while Pakistan still holds the most important point 5353?

Gives a whole new meaning to the word 'Strategic Victory'. Fact is, all you got was diplomatic victory, as always.

Do you know what Strategic and Tactical means?

When Germany invaded Russia on June 22, 1941 and defeated large numbers of Russian Red Army Troops and captured vast areas but was not able to take Moscow. That was a Tactical Victory for Germany but an overall Strategic Victory for Soviet Union. Why? While Germany won the initial battles it failed in its overall objective of taking the Soviet Capital and defeating the USSR.

Similarly, while we infiltrated into Kargil and inflicted heavy losses on India, we failed in our objective of severing the supply lines to Siachin Glacier and thus we ended up where we started from. It was also a diplomatic loss for Pakistan as well.

A country can win a Tactical victory, lose Strategically but win Diplomatically.

Look at Egypt in 1973 during Yom Kippur War.

Egypt crossed the Canal and took the Israelis by surprise in a major Tactical Victory. Even though Egypt was defeated, Egypt proved to Israel that it needs to be taken seriously and thus the Camp David Accords where Israel and Egypt were equals when they negotiated peace.

For Pakistan Kargil Was: A Tactical Victory. A Strategic Defeat. A Diplomatic Defeat.
For India Kargil Was: A Tactical Defeat: A Strategic Victory. A Diplomatic Victory.
 
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ever wondered how India was able to get Pakistanis militants evicted from the Kargil heights (militarily and/or diplomatically) within a few months and why Pakistan despite crying a river for last 28 years and having attempted multiple tiimes in late 80's has not managed to gain an inch of what India captured in 1984 in Siachen. ? That is called a strategic victory.. You guys are too stuck in the jingoistic mind set of martial race.. You dont care whether you meet your pre planned objectives or not as long as some military pride is salvagable... No wonder Pakistan finds itself in the predicament it does today......................

We have always been found wanting, politically and diplomatically. You interested in the real reasons why we always lose politically & diplomatically? Let me give you a very simple, self explanatory, example.

Hussain Haqqani, the outgoing ambassador of Pakistan to the US (or was it vice versa, as he sure worked for the interests of his 'other' country) issued thousands of visas to US mercenaries without any background checks. These Blackwater agents were not even required to fill out the visa forms and most of the times only 'jacked up' names were provided and all of these visas were 'diplomatic' visas. When, under pressure from ISI & Military, the Pakistani consulate in US was ordered to stop issuing visas to the Americans so graciously (after some spat b/w CIA & ISI), there were 400+ visas issued to Americans from Dubai on Friday.......you do realize that Friday is a holiday in the middle east!

I've said it again and again, we are not as blessed as India in our civilian leadership as many of them are agents of the west imposed upon us while the rest are so lost in corruption and immoral ways of life that they cannot care.
 
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You can cry louder and speak as much nonsense as you want about Pakistan army disown their own soldiers but If you ask the opinions of soldiers then they are proud and feel it honour to die for their mother land and their families are also willing to sacrifices their son for this land. Pakistani soldiers don't need your sympathies and crocodile tears

I never deny the good knowledge of moderators and their ability of having good discussion but you indians will agree with their views and will quote their posts when their posts support your Indian opinions while you will reject their opinions when it oppose to your opinions . This is your personal Indian criteria of credibility of Pakistani moderators :)

There are enough Indians around who do not fit into your warped view. Since you are 114 posts old, your comment was cheeky and impertinent. Ask the moderators themselves.

Do you know what Strategic and Tactical means?

When Germany invaded Russia on June 22, 1941 and defeated large numbers of Russian Red Army Troops and captured vast areas but was not able to take Moscow. That was a Tactical Victory for Germany but an overall Strategic Victory for Soviet Union. Why? While Germany won the initial battles it failed in its overall objective of taking the Soviet Capital and defeating the USSR.

Similarly, while we infiltrated into Kargil and inflicted heavy losses on India, we failed in our objective of severing the supply lines to Siachin Glacier and thus we ended up where we started from. It was also a diplomatic loss for Pakistan as well.

A country can win a Tactical victory, lose Strategically but win Diplomatically.

Look at Egypt in 1973 during Yom Kippur War.

Egypt crossed the Canal and took the Israelis by surprise in a major Tactical Victory. Even though Egypt was defeated, Egypt proved to Israel that it needs to be taken seriously and thus the Camp David Accords where Israel and Egypt were equals when they negotiated peace.

For Pakistan Kargil Was: A Tactical Victory. A Strategic Defeat. A Diplomatic Defeat.
For India Kargil Was: A Tactical Defeat: A Strategic Victory. A Diplomatic Victory.

Very lucid and well explained. Thank you for throwing light on the subject..
 
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Karan we had the Official list of Pakistani KIA on the ISPR website, my son - it was 453 - and personally as the indian dead piled up, was heartbroken to think that their young wives and families would be receiving a dead soldier. We did not even have to aim, just point in the general direction and watch the indians fall.

Dear Friend,
This is a defence forum, defence issue are not attached with much strings of emotions & womenly feelings. By now every member of PDF knows that you have huge sympathy for YOUNG INDIAN SOLDIERS rather than shame of defeat or grief/sadness about any number of PA soldier died.

Now please STOP SOUNDING LIKE A SISSY as your sympathies have been noted by all members.
Thank You.
 
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