PAK-FA takes to the sky!

[pmukherjee]

There is no doubt about the superiority of the F-22 today. However This article is definitely biased against dog-fights and Sukhois. (Probably a plea for more funding for F-22's?)
For one, most air-air kills are in close combat rather than BVR engagements as the author claims (AFAIK, BVR accounts for only 2-3 kills till date, correct me if I am wrong). The stats speak for themselves.
Secondly, even if Su's manage to avoid F-22s BVR missiles and do manage to get in close combat, the range of the Sukhoi is still considerable to give the pilot ample amount of time to engage the Raptor before running out of fuel, provided the raptor doesnt 'drill his brains out' in the first few seconds.
And like our Pakistani friends always say, its the man in the machine that matters, not the machine (a jab and pun intended a la comparison of JF-17 and Su-30 MKI)
And lastly, no one knows what PAK-FA looks like or what its capabilities are going to be. So how does the author seem to know about its capabilities to compare it to F-35? Either he's Putin's stooge or a good 'ol plain idiot. Second time you read the article, you find it to be more biased and amateurish.

1. Where does the point of additional funding for F-22s arise when it is already under production and the total production figures have been frozen at 187 or thereabouts, kind courtesy defense secy Gates.
2. Now I am not taking sides here, merely stating facts. F-22 has stealth characteristics far superior to that seen or envisaged in any other fighter. It needs to carry a transponder just to be visible to friendly ATCs for God's sake! Couple the incredible stealth attributes with super cruise and BVR missiles and you have a very heady cocktail indeed. Thank God they are not making too many more of them. If you cant see it, how do you bloody fight it?
3. link Comparison of 21st century fighter aircraft: Encyclopedia II - Comparison of 21st century fighter aircraft - DERA study

 

[gubbi]

1. Where does the point of additional funding for F-22s arise when it is already under production and the total production figures have been frozen at 187 or thereabouts, kind courtesy defense secy Gates.
2. Now I am not taking sides here, merely stating facts. F-22 has stealth characteristics far superior to that seen or envisaged in any other fighter. It needs to carry a transponder just to be visible to friendly ATCs for God's sake! Couple the incredible stealth attributes with super cruise and BVR missiles and you have a very heady cocktail indeed. Thank God they are not making too many more of them. If you cant see it, how do you bloody fight it?
3. link Comparison of 21st century fighter aircraft: Encyclopedia II - Comparison of 21st century fighter aircraft - DERA study

The USAF wants more F-22's. Boys with bigger better toys - you can say that. Its also got to do with the economics and job creation and maintenance. The parts for F-22 come from many states and all the politicians want the production lines to be kept open for jobs and money. Thats why you see such reports which are basically a plea for more F-22s. Theres even talk of an export version of the Raptor for Japan and may be even Australia!
You for one are greatly exaggerating the capabilities of the F-22. Agreed its highly 'stealthy', however its NOT invisible! Follow some of the exercises of USAF where F-15s and even the T-38 Talon have scored kills over F-22s. But that doesnt in any way underestimate the aircraft. There is no doubt that theres nothing which can counter the Raptor in the skies today. Tomorrow may be another story! Havent you read about modifications to Su-30 MKI for better RCS?
Basically the said article is very much biased in favor of the F-22, that all I wanted to convey.

 

[pmukherjee]

The USAF wants more F-22's. Boys with bigger better toys - you can say that. Its also got to do with the economics and job creation and maintenance. The parts for F-22 come from many states and all the politicians want the production lines to be kept open for jobs and money. Thats why you see such reports which are basically a plea for more F-22s. Theres even talk of an export version of the Raptor for Japan and may be even Australia!
You for one are greatly exaggerating the capabilities of the F-22. Agreed its highly 'stealthy', however its NOT invisible! Follow some of the exercises of USAF where F-15s and even the T-38 Talon have scored kills over F-22s. But that doesnt in any way underestimate the aircraft. There is no doubt that theres nothing which can counter the Raptor in the skies today. Tomorrow may be another story! Havent you read about modifications to Su-30 MKI for better RCS?
Basically the said article is very much biased in favor of the F-22, that all I wanted to convey.

You have a point there Gubbi. Tell me, if it goes to Japan today, what stops it from going to Saudi Arabia tomorrow? If that happens, first thing we hear is that Pak pilots stationed there are gaining experience on it and then may be a few F-22s are loaned to Pak in a conflict scenario (which one hopes never happens). Assuming that by such time we have the PAK-FA (HAL), can it handle the F-22s? Yes, the SU-30MKIs need to reduce their RCS drastically. Even F-15s have a far lower RCS. Basically, I think the Russians have been caught sleeping on this stealth thing. While the Americans have been investing heavily on stealth technology for decades with the SR-71, F-117 and B-2s, the Russians are belatedly trying to play catch up as they have been concentrating on greater dogfight capabilities. That is where the PAK-FA lags behind. Without genuine stealth the PAK-FA can never call itself fifth generation.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

The father of stealth is called Piotr Umfskin. This guy is a Russian.

 

[gambit]

The USAF wants more F-22's. Boys with bigger better toys - you can say that. Its also got to do with the economics and job creation and maintenance. The parts for F-22 come from many states and all the politicians want the production lines to be kept open for jobs and money. Thats why you see such reports which are basically a plea for more F-22s. Theres even talk of an export version of the Raptor for Japan and may be even Australia!
You for one are greatly exaggerating the capabilities of the F-22. Agreed its highly 'stealthy', however its NOT invisible! Follow some of the exercises of USAF where F-15s and even the T-38 Talon have scored kills over F-22s. But that doesnt in any way underestimate the aircraft. There is no doubt that theres nothing which can counter the Raptor in the skies today. Tomorrow may be another story! Havent you read about modifications to Su-30 MKI for better RCS?
Basically the said article is very much biased in favor of the F-22, that all I wanted to convey.

The US does not claim that the F-22 and its brethens 'invisible' to radar. The word 'invisible' is often used by the media. The proper term is 'low observable'. In radar engineering, 1ghz and below and nothing is really 'invisible', not even the F-22 and its brethens. But the problem with these freqs are very poor target resolutions in terms of speed and distance, making these freqs vulnerable to ECM. For aircrafts, by the time they can detect the F-22 on their radars, in those exercises, the fights are rigged in favor of the 'non-stealth' aircrafts to give them some experience in dealing with LO opponents. The reality is that whenever the exercise has no such rules, there was a greater than 10-1 kill ratio in favor of the F-22.

 

[IAF]

but wat against our new FGFA

F/A-22R Vs Su-30MKI

Kill % is 10 Vs 4.5

But Expect With Su-35 PAK FA/FGFA the same they are Sheath Breakers

 

[IAF]

I picked this up somewhere, as of now and in the foreseeable future, there is nothing to beat the F-22.

"The PAK FA was designed to compete with the F-35 Lighting II (AKA JSF) not the F-22. They are two different leagues.

The Su-35 vs. the F-22? Well for one these aircraft are built with two different purposes in mind.

If one looks at the Su-35/37 they notice forward canards. Something that only the americans are not incorporating into their new fighters. The reason for this is forward canards speak to manuverability in a pinch. This boils down to dogfighting. In the hands of pilots of equal skill, the Su's have the advantage in a dogfight.

However dogfights account for only 1 out of 10 aerial victories. The rest being attained in BVR (beyond vidual range) combat. This is what the F-22 was designed for.

You see we've all seen movies like "Top Gun" and "Iron Eagle" and when we think of a missile being fired we think "Break Right!" Well against short range missiles that works. Against longer range missiles such as the AMRAAM this doesn't work. When one fires an AMRAAM at you that's flying mach-4/5 you don't try to break right. Its got plenty of time to compensate, and you don't wait for it to get close then dodge, its moving to fast. What you do is go into erratic manuvers forcing the missile to use up fuel and speed to keep up. The goal being to either cause it to burn up its fuel, or lose so much speed matching your manuvers that you can dodge it.

The F-22 was designed with this purpose in mind. Get so close you can't escape the missiles, fire them, then leave. Dogfighting only as a last resort.

In BVR combat the F-22 has a clear advantage. Also keep in mind AIM-120 are more effective from an F-22, why? Despite what you see in the movies in most air to air combat the fighters stay close to the ground to stay out of the view of surface to air missiles. The stealth F-22 does not, and its high altitude and supercruising speed adds range and speed to the missiles.

There is no doubt in my mind the F-22 is capable of scoring a 10-1 ratio on the Su-35 based purely on the merits of the plane. However combat is much more complicated than this. Those fighting the F-22 will try to avoid engaging it unless they are over their home territory with SAM's, and multiple radars to help them. The americans will send F-35's and F/A-18's on Wild Weasel to degrade this capability. The determinant factor in the battle of Su-35 vs. F-22 is distance. From long range I don't think even the Su-35 could escape such a close missile launch. In a close range fight, both have thrust vectoring, and the Su has canards. However one thing often overlooked in the craft's manuverability is weight. Russian aircraft are big, mean, and heavy. American aircraft are lighter making them easier to move.

I think the Su-35 would likely retain the manuverability advantage which could give a skilled enough pilot an edge, but its getting that close that's the key. A favorite American tactic is "the grinder" where aircraft go high, launch AIM-120, then spiral downward presenting a confusing radar image. From here they retreat reform, and come back. A Su-35 would have to dodge the AIM-120's, then kick in his afterburners to catch the supercruising F-22 before it reforms. This leads to a short combat time.

For russian aircraft fighting the F-22 will depend on its ability to do the following. Find the F-22's avoid their missiles, close the distance, force them into a dogfight, and shoot them down before the Su or Mig "bingo's" on fuel. If a Su can force an F-22 into a dogfight he has a chance, without it, I don't like his odds.

As far as PAKFA vs. F-22, this is like comparing F-22 to F-35 JSF, aircraft designed on different parameters. A better comparison is the PAKFA versus the F-35 in which case unless the F-35 pilot is of much higher quality the PAKFA wins. Thanks to congressional penny-pinching the Air Force has been forced to dump more and more tasks on the F-35. This leads to compromise and to many have been made.

The F-35's better wait until the F-22's clean the skies out for them."

Su-35 also have the Sheath, sheath breaker and BVR technology, even Su-30MKI is capable of BVR upto 350-400km...

in current mode F-15/16/18 both are gud but the other hand MiG-29, Su-30, Gripen, Typhoon, Rafale...?

 

[leonblack08]

but wat against our new FGFA

F/A-22R Vs Su-30MKI

Kill % is 10 Vs 4.5

But Expect With Su-35 PAK FA/FGFA the same they are Sheath Breakers

Are you talking about cope India 04?then get your facts right.It was against F-15 not F-22.
Since FGFA is still in development process there is no point comparing it with Raptors.

 

[IAF]

Are you talking about cope India 04?then get your facts right.It was against F-15 not F-22.
Since FGFA is still in development process there is no point comparing it with Raptors.

Against F-15, Su-30MKI had More Kill with AEWS Raders from Israel. and the BVR capability. it can detect 64 object, track 32, target 8, engage 2 in BVR Mode....

this is the replay for the F-15 pilot who spoke nonsense...

link : Exercise Red Flag 2008-4 / Su-30MKI vs F-15, F-16, F-22

Comments and Analysis

Despite Col. Fornof having observed Red Flag up close, his comments should not be treated as the gospel truth - there is a possibility that he is ‘playing to the gallery’. His comments carry weight since he is an operational pilot with the USAF but he certainly cannot cover the entire exercise and has no inside knowledge of the way IAF ‘fought’. Nevertheless, even though his comments appear to be negative about the IAF to the uninformed listener; overall he has actually praised the IAF and its performance.

*

The Su-30MKI did not use the data link in the exercise unlike the other air forces. The reason being the HAL supplied system is not compatible with NATO data links – neither is the system required to be compatible with NATO. The speaker clearly mentions that the high fratricide ratio in the kills was because of this reason. While NATO air forces are designed to inter operate with each other and carry out joint missions, the IAF is not.
*

Su-30MKI is equipped with its own data link which can share target information across multiple fighters. IAF is presently inducting A-50EI Phalcon AEW&C aircraft. Red Flag and other exercises before it have seen IAF working very closely with the AWACS crew of the other air force. Operational Data Link (ODL) will be provided to all fighters in the IAF over the coming years.
*

The IFF system used by IAF is not compatible with NATO standard, hence the need for verbal communication with the controller.
*

The aircraft were operating their radars on training mode since the actual signals with which the Bars radar operates are kept secret.
*

The high mix of highly experienced pilots in Ex Cope India, if true, cannot be consistent across all sqns that were involved in the exercise. During Cope India, the 24 Sqn operating Su-30K/MK was first Flanker unit in the IAF and only one of two Su-30 units in the entire IAF at that time. To find a concentration of senior pilots in these squadrons will not be unexpected given that these units will be forging doctrines and tactics and building up a pool of pilots. Per article on Cope India here; “Nor did U.S. pilots believe they faced only India's top guns. Instead, they said that at least in some units they faced a mix of experienced and relatively new Indian fighter and strike pilots.”. Moreover, the mix of experience needs to be examined for the USAF squadrons as well. The aggressor squadron at Nellis and the F-22 attracts the best in the USA.
*

MiG-21 Bison does not have an Israeli radar as noted in the lecture. The type is equipped with a Phazotron Kopyo (spear) unit. The Kopyo radar has a 57km detection range against a 5 m^2 (54ft^2) radar cross section, or fighter-sized target. It can track eight targets and shoot at two simultaneously.
*

Su-30MKI is equipped with Saturn AL-31FP engines, not Turmansky as mentioned in the lecture
*

Soviet era aircraft were designed to operate from poorly prepared airfields. For example; MiG-29 closes its intakes during taxi and take-off to avoid ingestion of FOD thrown up by the front wheels. In this state the engines are supplied air thru louvres located on upper surface of the leading edge. This design feature is at the cost of significant internal fuel capacity and hence has been eliminated in newer MiG-29 versions starting with the K/KUB variants. Flanker come with lighter anti-FOD grills in the intakes as well as wheel fenders that catch FOD. IAF has precautions built into their SOPs – which may be overlooked in case of war or any such exigency. Since the deployment was far away from home base in the USA, with no spares support and related infrastructure it was well worth to observe strict adherence to SOPs instead to being stuck with a grounded aircraft!
*

This is not the first time the MiG-21 Bison has been praised for successes during dissimilar air combat training (DACT) – even during previous USAF exercise and internal IAF exercises pilots are known to have scored ‘kills’ against more advanced adversaries. The small size (lower visual signature) and inherently small radar cross section coupled with modern avionics, radar, effective jammers, precision guided munitions and missiles (R-73, R-77) make Bison one of the best fighters in IAF after Su-30 and Mirage-2000. IAF’s has had good experience with small jets such as Gnat which earned the reputation of “Sabre Slayer” in the 1965 war with Pakistan. The under-development LCA Tejas promises to carry on this legacy when it replaces the Bison.

Under the glare of the world’s attention the IAF pilots, crew and their aircraft have clearly acquitted themselves well in Ex Red Flag 2008. This exercise was the most complex environment IAF worked in, even more than the Cope Thunder exercise in Alaska where Jaguar IS fighters had participated. The challenges faced were because of the operational environment, training rules and airspace restriction where the IAF is not expected to fight a war in any case. Shortcomings must have come up – but then that is exactly why IAF is training for.

 

[IAF]

This is Like a Wheel of Success.

F-22/35 === Su-PAK FA/FGFA

 

[duhastmish]

Russia and India have identified the characteristics of fifth generation fighter

Russia and India have identified the tactical-technical characteristics of prospective fifth-generation fighter, which will be developed jointly by the two countries. Currently, the parties shall consult on the allocation of work. As reported by RIA Novosti, said Director of the "Rosoboronexport" Alexander Mikheyev in an interview with the publication of "arms" to be published next week.

Mikheyev said that the work comes within the framework of an intergovernmental protocol, which stipulates the basic principles of relationships, including sharing of work, mode of financing and delivery dates. He also commented on the possible competition in the market of arms from the U.S. fifth generation fighter F-35: "Considering that the world market for combat aircraft is limited, of course, we see F-35 as a competitor and a very serious competitor."

Nevertheless, according to Mikheeva, the United States, and Russia is the traditional market segments, and the rivalry between the two countries in the dramatic form is not expressed. Russian forward fighter, as the head of "Rosoboronexport", will not assign the F-35 on the tactical and technical characteristics, with substantially lower cost.

Recall that the development of forward-looking set of front-line aviation aircraft (PAK FA) is a number of domestic design bureau in the late 1980's. He must replace the MiG-29 and Su-27.The first flight of the machine, tentatively to be held in 2009.

Russia also signed an agreement with India that the two countries will jointly develop a fifth generation fighter aircraft.The Russian Air Force plans to adopt a single option, and the Indian Air Force looked at the double.

Source: news agency "Lenta.Ru"
Published: 30.07.2009, 15:33

http://74.125.153.132/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://www.lenta.ru/news/2009/07/30/fighter/&prev=/search%3Fq%3DLenta.Ru%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG&rurl=translate.google.co.in&usg=ALkJrhhF9jFkDE79QJpg4CwvHHq08kaYJQ

 

[ouiouiouiouiouioui]

5th generation aircraft...when indians are going to realize their first squadron...

 

[duhastmish]

it should be out in public by this month around 18 august. but will be under trial for 3-4 years and hopefully in 2013-14 years india's first squadron of single seater and then 2015-2016 twin seater indian MKIsed

 

[Haanzo]

it should be out in public by this month around 18 august. but will be under trial for 3-4 years and hopefully in 2013-14 years india's first squadron of single seater and then 2015-2016 twin seater indian MKIsed

err dont you think the first sqdrn will be a dream before 20 18-19

 

[Developereo]

June 15, 2009, (Sawf News) - The Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) being developed by Russia with some Indian financing is unlikely to take to the air by the end of this year as projected earlier, reports Flight Magazine.

There you have the crux of the so-called 'joint development'.

The Russians were cash strapped and needed someone to pump in the money to continue development. That is the sum total (pun intended) of the Indian 'contribution' to this 'joint development'. The composite material knowledge of Indians is not an asset since the Russians already have this expertise.

The cash-strapped Russians will surely sell PAK-FA to PLAAF and the Chinese will transfer the tech into their J-XX.