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Pak army chief gets tough, asks Zardari, Gilani to act on corruption

Related news or 'rumors'? Reports of a coup have been circulating since year one of this government - rumors alone do not justify allegations of 'threats by the COAS'.

Since I dont live in Pakistan, I have to make do with articles appearing in various News papers..And till the time it actually happens, everything is a rumor. There will be obvious denials and counter claims, but I will not discount Musharraf's statements so lightly, considering his relationship with Kayani and distaste for Zardari.

Is Pakistan heading for a coup? | Mustafa Qadri | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Musharraf warns of new military coup in Pakistan

Crisis in Pakistan: Possible Army Coup in Works, as US and Pakistan Clash | The Nation



That is true of almost any influential position - by definition an 'influential position' carries certain powers with it. However, you have not illustrated beyond speculation and rumor mongering that Kiyani in any way threatened the GoP, rather than merely pointing out their governance flaws and advising the GoP to fix them.

First of all there is a difference in threatning someone and there being an implicit threat. Also the role of Army in a democratic setup is not to question the policies of the govt. He is free to do that as a citizen, but I dont think the meeting in question is of a citizen with his PM/President. Case in point is the title of the thread..
Its not for the Chief of Army to point out the so called flaws and advice the president to fix them.

The fact that he is able to muscle his way into forcefully advising the democratic govt to get their house in order, the advice that is outside his mandated duties as a govt servant, demonstrates his abilities to go outside the control of the leadership he is supposed to obey. And if that by the chief of Armed forces is not an implicit threat, I dont know what will be. How many generals in Pakistani army can survive walking upto Kiyani and telling him to get his house in order (if they think he doesnt). Doesnt Kiyani have the same relationship with Zardari as per the constitution on Pakistan?


'Put your house in order' may be a direct quote, or may be embellishment on the part of the sources quoting Kiyani. I imagine the meeting involved Zardari, Gillani and Kiyani, and any other so called sources would be basing their views of what happened on indirect information about the contents of the meeting relayed to them by one of the three participants.
There can be a 1001 maybes around anything that doesnt happen in front of oneself, but the basis of the discussion has to be the published article. Isnt it?

'Forcefully demanded crackdown on corruption' is in no way a direct quote - your English is good enough to realize that phrase is in the third person narrative, and someone elses opinion of what Kiayani said and how he said it. Again, given three participants at the meeting, this account would be based on how people interpreted the event.
I would assume if Kiyani can say "get your house in order" to Zardari and Gilani, rest of his discussion would not be docile. But as I said, there can be a thousand and one may be's for every thing..

There is nothing here that supports any of your contentions of 'Kiyani did this to gain power' or that he threatened the GoP. You are throwing about unsubstantiated speculation based on rumors.

You are simply being blindly defensive here. I have never said that he wants to overthrow the govt. In my view (and its a view) he is simply increasing his sphere of power and influence by bullying the democratic govt which is not popular at this time and still not toppling them so that he gains favour both from the Population of Pakistan and the west. And as I said earlier, the goal of corruption is not always money. A lot of times, its power as well..
 
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Since I dont live in Pakistan, I have to make do with articles appearing in various News papers..And till the time it actually happens, everything is a rumor. There will be obvious denials and counter claims, but I will not discount Musharraf's statements so lightly, considering his relationship with Kayani and distaste for Zardari.

Is Pakistan heading for a coup? | Mustafa Qadri | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk



DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Musharraf warns of new military coup in Pakistan

Well, Karan, Musahrraf also said this...

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan




Case in point is the title of the thread..
Its not for the Chief of Army to point out the so called flaws and advice the president to fix them.

You have to understand what is expected of an Army Chief in Pakistan. Ofcourse, for an Indian it will be difficult to accept but this isn't India. In our country, the Army Chief has a political role. Whether it's good or bad and why is another debate !

In my view (and its a view) he is simply increasing his sphere of power and influence by bullying the democratic govt which is not popular at this time and still not toppling them so that he gains favour both from the Population of Pakistan and the west. And as I said earlier, the goal of corruption is not always money. A lot of times, its power as well..

You are entitled to have your opinion but the Army Chief doesn't have to do this, what is being reported, to maximize his influence. His existing powers and his influence are exactly what enable him to do so.
 
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Well, Karan, Musahrraf also said this...

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

You are right.. But its the indicators one is talking about. Multiple events and multiple quotes formulate the opinion of the readers. A subsequent denial by one of the quoters generally is not enough to negate the perception




You have to understand what is expected of an Army Chief in Pakistan. Ofcourse, for an Indian it will be difficult to accept but this isn't India. In our country, the Army Chief has a political role. Whether it's good or bad and why is another debate !
But is that the expectation as per the constitution or the expectation that has arisen from some 3 decades of army rule that came in as a result of overthrowing of democratic govts? So hand on heart, if this is the expectation that is contradictory to the constitution of Pakistan, should it have any legitimacy?


You are entitled to have your opinion but the Army Chief doesn't have to do this, what is being reported, to maximize his influence. His existing powers and his influence are exactly what enable him to do so.

May be he is just trying to see how far can he push the envelope... May be he wants to guage the reaction of the western powers...The motives are known only to him (we can only speculate), but what doesnt need speculation is that he is operating outside his mandated role as per Pakistani laws..
 
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You are right.. But its the indicators one is talking about. Multiple events and multiple quotes formulate the opinion of the readers. A subsequent denial by one of the quoters generally is not enough to negate the perception

If this perception that your refer to is about a military coup, then i must say that most of the indicators so far negate such an eventuality in the near future. This is my reading of the situation. There is a difference in ground reality and what is being reported.


But is that the expectation as per the constitution or the expectation that has arisen from some 3 decades of army rule that came in as a result of overthrowing of democratic govts? So hand on heart, if this is the expectation that is contradictory to the constitution of Pakistan, should it have any legitimacy?

This is a question of why. And you have answered it yourself. It's not an issue of legitimacy. It's a fall out of prolonged military rules which weren't legitimate either.


May be he is just trying to see how far can he push the envelope... May be he wants to guage the reaction of the western powers...The motives are known only to him (we can only speculate), but what doesnt need speculation is that he is operating outside his mandated role as per Pakistani laws..

Yes we can only speculate but you really think Western powers care about democracy? Historically, all coups in Pakistan have had the support of the west especially USA. Circumstances also backed such scenarios where they were more comfortable in dealing with one man.
 
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The funny thing is that folks are applauding PA for going up against corruption. If you look at it, what Kayani is doing is a form of corruption in its own order. He is misusing his position to go outside his mandate for personal gain. The only difference is that in place of money like most corrupt politicians, he is doing this to gain power. Since once you have power, money will follow. His mentor Musharraf taught this well to him...

What is being missed in your argument is the crux of the issue. Corruption means less money is available for things that have to be funded. I.E. national security etc. When there is excessive corruption or perception of such, its that much harder to acquire funding for any development (civilian or military). The issue for the armed forces is that the economy is being driven to the ground whereas it was in decent form under the previous administration.

When the Army sees the impact of this on national security, then it speaks out. Due to this, one can argue that all of what is being shared with the government is within the purview of the military's role within the ambit of national security. The idea of NSC is the same, since NSC is not convened regularly, the armed forces have no choice but to voice their concerns to the political leadership directly.

"The only difference is that in place of money like most corrupt politicians, he is doing this to gain power."

This is inaccurate. Kiyani won't be bothering with power. He will do his part and move on at the end of his current tenure. Plenty of opportunities have already passed him. As to your claim about money will follow, where is your proof that the previous Army chief siphoned money? Please do not put up baseless aspersions.
 
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What is being missed in your argument is the crux of the issue. Corruption means less money is available for things that have to be funded. I.E. national security etc. When there is excessive corruption or perception of such, its that much harder to acquire funding for any development (civilian or military). The issue for the armed forces is that the economy is being driven to the ground whereas it was in decent form under the previous administration.

When the Army sees the impact of this on national security, then it speaks out. Due to this, one can argue that all of what is being shared with the government is within the purview of the military's role within the ambit of national security. The idea of NSC is the same, since NSC is not convened regularly, the armed forces have no choice but to voice their concerns to the political leadership directly.



This is inaccurate. Kiyani won't be bothering with power. He will do his part and move on at the end of his current tenure. Plenty of opportunities have already passed him. As to your claim about money will follow, where is your proof that the previous Army chief siphoned money? Please do not put up baseless aspersions.

Sir, bhains kae agay been bajanay sae koie ferk nahien pertaa.

By sitting over the border, they have no idea of the issues being faced by the Pakistanis and how it affects our day to day happenings.

All they need is to somehow, from somewhere, from whatever place, bash Pakistan.

What you said, has been repeated by other members too, it won't make any difference.
 
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If this perception that your refer to is about a military coup, then i must say that most of the indicators so far negate such an eventuality in the near future. This is my reading of the situation. There is a difference in ground reality and what is being reported.

I also dont believe a military coup is expected. America will never allow it in the present circumstances. But there are more than one way to assume power. This is what I said in my original post...

My personal view, this is all a prelude to implement a sort of military rule that has a puppet front of a civilian democracy so that it stays palatable for the Western sources of funds and arms..

This is a question of why. And you have answered it yourself. It's not an issue of legitimacy. It's a fall out of prolonged military rules which weren't legitimate either.
But that still doesnt legitimize it. Its not for the military in a democracy to point out corruption and inefficiency in the govt. I persoanlly think that Army has become the easy fallback for most Pakistanis since it absolves them of the responsibility of choice. One may bash the existing govt of Pakistan as much as they want, but at the end of it, they have been selected by the people themselves. And indirectly the blame falls on the people for selecting bad leaders. Hence Army seems the escape hatch since Army just assumes power without the citizens having any say in it. If it works, good.. If not, well they can always say that they didnt have a choice..


Yes we can only speculate but you really think Western powers care about democracy? Historically, all coups in Pakistan have had the support of the west especially USA. Circumstances also backed such scenarios where they were more comfortable in dealing with one man.
No country cares 2 hoots about another country if it does not conform to its national interests. But those are not always openly clear. So a little bit of testing the waters is always in order. After all, appearances matter a lot.

USA cant be seen to be openly backing a dictatorship at this time with everything else going on in its backyard.
On the other hand, a dictatorship in Pakistan may give it a bigger leeway to expand its war in KP since then it wont be attacking a democracy.

Kayani knows this.. What he may need to find out is the location of the threashold..

---------- Post added at 12:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:45 AM ----------

What is being missed in your argument is the crux of the issue. Corruption means less money is available for things that have to be funded. I.E. national security etc. When there is excessive corruption or perception of such, its that much harder to acquire funding for any development (civilian or military). The issue for the armed forces is that the economy is being driven to the ground whereas it was in decent form under the previous administration.

When the Army sees the impact of this on national security, then it speaks out. Due to this, one can argue that all of what is being shared with the government is within the purview of the military's role within the ambit of national security. The idea of NSC is the same, since NSC is not convened regularly, the armed forces have no choice but to voice their concerns to the political leadership directly.
Ensuring money is available for military needs is not the mandate of the armed foces but for the ministry of defence in Pakistan. Constitutionally Army has no role to make policy decisions/comments around National security. Only implement the national security policy as formulated by the GoP. At least till the time Musharraf's recommendation of giving army a constitutional authority in Pakistan.


This is inaccurate. Kiyani won't be bothering with power. He will do his part and move on at the end of his current tenure. Plenty of opportunities have already passed him. As to your claim about money will follow, where is your proof that the previous Army chief siphoned money? Please do not put up baseless aspersions.

I dont know the man, so I can not comment on his motives, but the actions point in the direction of assuming powers greater than the ones granted to him by the constitution of Pakistan.

Also nowhere I am implying siphoning of money. All I am saying is that once you have power, getting money is no problem..So a bid at power is more fruitful than a bid at money..

---------- Post added at 12:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:45 AM ----------

Sir, bhains kae agay been bajanay sae koie ferk nahien pertaa.

By sitting over the border, they have no idea of the issues being faced by the Pakistanis and how it affects our day to day happenings.

All they need is to somehow, from somewhere, from whatever place, bash Pakistan.

What you said, has been repeated by other members too, it won't make any difference.

This is a pretty unconstructive way of killing a discussion. Have I been derogatory of Pakistan or its people anywhere in my posts in this thread? Or have I bashed anything about Pakistan except a probable attempt (which may or may not be correct) to upsurp democracy.

I said it in my initial posts that if the issue is too sensitive, then do let me know and I will back off from commenting further. I still stand by it..
 
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Ensuring money is available for military needs is not the mandate of the armed foces but for the ministry of defence in Pakistan. Constitutionally Army has no role to make policy decisions/comments around National security. Only implement the national security policy as formulated by the GoP. At least till the time Musharraf's recommendation of giving army a constitutional authority in Pakistan.

This is more than money being available for just the military needs. When the economy becomes totally dependent on foreign funding, then it has implications over how the national or foreign policy has to be run. The Army does not want the government to be in this situation where foreign governments and institutions are making calls on what Pakistan should and should not spend money on. One can argue its not the job of the Army, however given the way Pakistan has been run, it has been the Army's job to make sure that our national and foreign policy does not become subservient to those providing monetary aid to the country.

I dont know the man, so I can not comment on his motives, but the actions point in the direction of assuming powers greater than the ones granted to him by the constitution of Pakistan.

Also nowhere I am implying siphoning of money. All I am saying is that once you have power, getting money is no problem..So a bid at power is more fruitful than a bid at money..


Well if you do not know the man then you should not be alluding anything. None of the Pakistani military rulers have siphoned money off to foreign bank accounts or otherwise. This is the case starting with Ayub Khan all the way up to Musharraf. Some people around them may have made money using their connections, but individually none of the Army chiefs have siphoned money off. Kayani is no different because this is something that cannot be kept a secret given the type of job one holds as an Army Chief. There are significant checks and balances and primarily its the reputation of the Army on the line. No Army chief would want to bring this type of infamy to the Pakistan Army if he was worth his salt as a soldier and an Army chief.
 
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This is more than money being available for just the military needs. When the economy becomes totally dependent on foreign funding, then it has implications over how the national or foreign policy has to be run. The Army does not want the government to be in this situation where foreign governments and institutions are making calls on what Pakistan should and should not spend money on. One can argue its not the job of the Army, however given the way Pakistan has been run, it has been the Army's job to make sure that our national and foreign policy does not become subservient to those providing monetary aid to the country.
Another way to look at it is that its the Army rule that has been responsible for most of the mess Pakistan finds itself in. All wars Pakistan got into were during the periods of Army dictatorship (not counting 1947 since that was like an extended partiotion tremors). The whole Talibanization of Pakistan policy towards Afghanistan (and India) was also done during the reign of Zia. Kargil, which cost Pakistan a lot of credibility in the west and was the single largest blow to its Kashmir aspirations was also master minded by Army without the Policitical leaders in the know (or so they say)

To me, it looks that democracy is left to clean up the mess after a period of dictatorship and then is booted out before it has enough time to fix what the previous army rule did. Its like a vicious circle now

13 years of military rule from 58 to 71 followed by 6 years of democracy

11 years of military rule from 77 to 88 followed by 11 years of democracy

9 years of military rule from 99 to 08 followed by 2 years of democracy so far and folks are already restless


Well if you do not know the man then you should not be alluding anything. None of the Pakistani military rulers have siphoned money off to foreign bank accounts or otherwise. This is the case starting with Ayub Khan all the way up to Musharraf. Some people around them may have made money using their connections, but individually none of the Army chiefs have siphoned money off. Kayani is no different because this is something that cannot be kept a secret given the type of job one holds as an Army Chief. There are significant checks and balances and primarily its the reputation of the Army on the line. No Army chief would want to bring this type of infamy to the Pakistan Army if he was worth his salt as a soldier and an Army chief.

Again.. Nowhere am I saying there is any siphoning of money.. Just that getting the absolute power, makes money insignificant and available when needed..The idea is to say that corruption necessarily does not need to involve money.. Power is an equally strong if not more lucrative reward for corruption...
 
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indians should concern themselves with their own nation, and let us worry about ours. That is why we love our great friends brothers and allies. Turkey and China - they never interfere in our internal affairs.
 
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indians should concern themselves with their own nation, and let us worry about ours. That is why we love our great friends brothers and allies. Turkey and China - they never interfere in our internal affairs.

Rafi,

Did you even notice that the thread has been started by a Sri Lankan, not Indian.
 
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Shaheed literally means witness......well they must be witness to something :angel:
 
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Another way to look at it is that its the Army rule that has been responsible for most of the mess Pakistan finds itself in. All wars Pakistan got into were during the periods of Army dictatorship (not counting 1947 since that was like an extended partiotion tremors). The whole Talibanization of Pakistan policy towards Afghanistan (and India) was also done during the reign of Zia. Kargil, which cost Pakistan a lot of credibility in the west and was the single largest blow to its Kashmir aspirations was also master minded by Army without the Policitical leaders in the know (or so they say)

To me, it looks that democracy is left to clean up the mess after a period of dictatorship and then is booted out before it has enough time to fix what the previous army rule did. Its like a vicious circle now

13 years of military rule from 58 to 71 followed by 6 years of democracy

11 years of military rule from 77 to 88 followed by 11 years of democracy

9 years of military rule from 99 to 08 followed by 2 years of democracy so far and folks are already restless




Again.. Nowhere am I saying there is any siphoning of money.. Just that getting the absolute power, makes money insignificant and available when needed..The idea is to say that corruption necessarily does not need to involve money.. Power is an equally strong if not more lucrative reward for corruption...



Just like a typical Indian, you jumping to conclusions too soon.

US is desperate to leave Afghanistan, who do you think will really fill the gap? India? You must be dreaming mate.

Corruption is there in Army, a lot . No one denies that, but Pakistan ain't the only place.

Civilians tend to be more corrupt, as in, they take everything and give nothing.
 
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Just like a typical Indian, you jumping to conclusions too soon.
I wonder where does my being an Indian come into discussion. We are discussing a political situation in Pakistan not stereotyping of Indians. :disagree:


US is desperate to leave Afghanistan, who do you think will really fill the gap? India? You must be dreaming mate.
Not related to the topic being discussed..

Corruption is there in Army, a lot . No one denies that, but Pakistan ain't the only place.
Not related to the topic being discussed..

Civilians tend to be more corrupt, as in, they take everything and give nothing.

Thats a matter of opinion. As they say, Power corrupts.. Absolute power corrupts absolutely..
 
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