Pak army chief gets tough, asks Zardari, Gilani to act on corruption

[Coltsfan]

Ah a speculation and being an Indian you are using this speculation to malign PA.

Its not speculation, it is called ability to predict based on past experience. Besides, PA is already much maligned, don't need to help them with that.

Talk to me after the coup happens.

LOL. I am sure that is what ZA Bhutto thought about Gen Zia

Sorry couldn't allow a thugs to rob the country for five years and than let the other thug to take his turn to loot the country for another five years. Sorry this might be how democrazy works but it is again illogical.



Being elected doesn't make someone noble or untouchable.

Would be interesting to see how other Pakistanis feel about that.

He is also the one directly responsible for the national security of Pakistan and this robbery of ghaddari and the gang is directly related with national security of Pakistan. As I said army can't sit and watch and let the thugs loot Pakistan at this very sensitive point of time.

Why don't Pakistani's hand over the control of their country to Army officially, then they wouldn't have to worry about democracy, elections, corruption etc. Things will be perfect and Pakistan would become a paradise

 

[Areesh]

Its not speculation, it is called ability to predict based on past experience. Besides, PA is already much maligned, don't need to help them with that.

It is a speculation. No need to debate more on that.

Would be interesting to see how other Pakistanis feel about that.

This is my POV not necessary that all Pakistanis would agree with it.

Why don't Pakistani's hand over the control of their country to Army officially, then they wouldn't have to worry about democracy, elections, corruption etc.

Now that's debatable.

 

[Awesome]

The Army has gone down this road before. Gen Kakar, Gen Nawaz, Gen Karamat and Gen Musharraf were a few who had problems with government corruption but the fact is that Pakistan's democratic governments owe a lot of people a lot so people ill-suited for the job are politically assigned resulting in sub-optimal performance, cronyism and corruption.

Gen Kayani's ask will go by the wayside as have all others by previous Army chiefs. This is the nature of the democratic beast in Pakistan. Corruption and democracy in Pakistan unfortunately go hand-in-hand.

This is not to suggest that democracy should be done away with, only that this is what the country has to suffer through to attain something decent down the road (or at least one can hope and pray for this).

I think a modification to Kakar's method would be done. Put a gun to Zardari's head and tell him to fire this n that person and then let him continue.

 

[karan.1970]

The funny thing is that folks are applauding PA for going up against corruption. If you look at it, what Kayani is doing is a form of corruption in its own order. He is misusing his position to go outside his mandate for personal gain. The only difference is that in place of money like most corrupt politicians, he is doing this to gain power. Since once you have power, money will follow. His mentor Musharraf taught this well to him...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The funny thing is that folks are applauding PA for going up against corruption. If you look at it, what Kayani is doing is a form of corruption in its own order. He is misusing his position to go outside his mandate for personal gain. The only difference is that in place of money like most corrupt politicians, he is doing this to gain power. Since once you have power, money will follow. His mentor Musharraf taught this well to him...

I do not see exhorting the government to engage in fighting corruption, ineptitude and mismanagement as 'personal gain'. Every thing Kiyani is reportedly asking the GoP to do benefits the nation as a whole, and is advice any concerned citizen would give, and should give.

If anything, for people in powerful and influential positions to not say anything, in the face of the GoP's mismanagement of almost everything, would be irresponsible. That is why I supported Clinton's criticizm of the GoP on not enacting tax reforms as well.

 

[IceCold]

The funny thing is that folks are applauding PA for going up against corruption. If you look at it, what Kayani is doing is a form of corruption in its own order. He is misusing his position to go outside his mandate for personal gain. The only difference is that in place of money like most corrupt politicians, he is doing this to gain power. Since once you have power, money will follow. His mentor Musharraf taught this well to him...

It seems you know him well from inside out to come out with a comment like this. Since when did this become Indian business. Talking is easy since luckily India does not have leaders like the ones we do, otherwise all this high talking of Indians wouldn't be coming out.

 

[IceCold]

Its not speculation, it is called ability to predict based on past experience. Besides, PA is already much maligned, don't need to help them with that.





LOL. I am sure that is what ZA Bhutto thought about Gen Zia





Would be interesting to see how other Pakistanis feel about that.





Why don't Pakistani's hand over the control of their country to Army officially, then they wouldn't have to worry about democracy, elections, corruption etc. Things will be perfect and Pakistan would become a paradise

Who the **** are you to come out and preach us Pakistanis what should or should not do. Why don't you mind your own business. If we were to hand over our country to army, its again our business and none of your concern. So don't poke your nose where it doesn't belong and pretend to be Mr.know all.

 

[IceCold]

I do not see exhorting the government to engage in fighting corruption, ineptitude and mismanagement as 'personal gain'. Every thing Kiyani is reportedly asking the GoP to do benefits the nation as a whole, and is advice any concerned citizen would give, and should give.

If anything, for people in powerful and influential positions to not say anything, in the face of the GoP's mismanagement of almost everything, would be irresponsible. That is why I supported Clinton's criticizm of the GoP on not enacting tax reforms as well.

Seriously man do you really need to explain it to him. You and i both know this debate will go no where. Army rules or not, its still none of their bloody business. Why bother.

 

[karan.1970]

I do not see exhorting the government to engage in fighting corruption, ineptitude and mismanagement as 'personal gain'. Every thing Kiyani is reportedly asking the GoP to do benefits the nation as a whole, and is advice any concerned citizen would give, and should give.

If anything, for people in powerful and influential positions to not say anything, in the face of the GoP's mismanagement of almost everything, would be irresponsible. That is why I supported Clinton's criticizm of the GoP on not enacting tax reforms as well.

Its a classical case of ends justifying the means. The only problem is that once that ideology sets in, its pretty easy to justify a lot of acts dubbed these days as terrorism since you can always find an admirable cause behind which all these actions can be rallied

I absolutely agree that people in powerful positions should critisize wrong doings of the govt. But exhorting a particular line of action using an implicit threat of force that a head of an armed force wields is a different ball game all together.

My personal view, this is all a prelude to implement a sort of military rule that has a puppet front of a civilian democracy so that it stays palatable for the Western sources of funds and arms..

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Its a classical case of ends justifying the means. The only problem is that once that ideology sets in, its pretty easy to justify a lot of acts dubbed these days as terrorism since you can always find an admirable cause behind which all these actions can be rallied

I absolutely agree that people in powerful positions should critisize wrong doings of the govt. But exhorting a particular line of action using an implicit threat of force that a head of an armed force wields is a different ball game all together.

My personal view, this is all a prelude to implement a sort of military rule that has a puppet front of a civilian democracy so that it stays palatable for the Western sources of funds and arms..

The 'implicit threat of force' is complete speculation on your part. I do not believe any of the reporting in Pakistan related to the alleged comments of Kiyani suggested any 'threat' of any kind. If you are referring to his position as COAS as justifying your speculation, then that is a very loose argument, since any influential position has powers associated with it and one could argue that 'advice' by any influential individual carries with it the 'implicit threat' of using those powers by virtue of the position of the individual.

It is a poor and speculative argument.

 

[karan.1970]

It seems you know him well from inside out to come out with a comment like this. Since when did this become Indian business. Talking is easy since luckily India does not have leaders like the ones we do, otherwise all this high talking of Indians wouldn't be coming out.

Whether Pakistan stays a democracy or again becomes a dictatorship, is definitely not any of India's business. However if we go by that logic, the only Indo-Pak discussions on this forum would be on Kashmir and that would be very boring..

But if this is too sensitive a sublect, let me know and i will hold my peace on this..

btw, we have had our share of corrupt and inefficient politicians in last 63 years. Ones that have taken us to the brink and back..

 

[karan.1970]

The 'implicit threat of force' is complete speculation on your part. I do not believe any of the reporting in Pakistan related to the alleged comments of Kiyani suggested any 'threat' of any kind.

My point of reference was purely on the repeated news about an impending coup that has been doing the rounds on the net. Also there were news about Zardari/Gilani meeting Kayani to clear the air on that point

Also, considering the status of army in Pakistan, the head of armed forces packs enough muscle to lend that force to every demand made by him.. implicit or otherwise.

The choice of the words from Kayani

" put your house in order"
"forcefully demanded crackdown on corruption"

Technically he was talking to his commander in chief.. Wasnt he?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

My point of reference was purely on the repeated news about an impending coup that has been doing the rounds on the net. Also there were news about Zardari/Gilani meeting Kayani to clear the air on that point

Related news or 'rumors'? Reports of a coup have been circulating since year one of this government - rumors alone do not justify allegations of 'threats by the COAS'.

Also, considering the status of army in Pakistan, the head of armed forces packs enough muscle to lend that force to every demand made by him.. implicit or otherwise.

That is true of almost any influential position - by definition an 'influential position' carries certain powers with it. However, you have not illustrated beyond speculation and rumor mongering that Kiyani in any way threatened the GoP, rather than merely pointing out their governance flaws and advising the GoP to fix them.

The choice of the words from Kayani

" put your house in order"
"forcefully demanded crackdown on corruption"

Technically he was talking to his commander in chief.. Wasnt he?

'Put your house in order' may be a direct quote, or may be embellishment on the part of the sources quoting Kiyani. I imagine the meeting involved Zardari, Gillani and Kiyani, and any other so called sources would be basing their views of what happened on indirect information about the contents of the meeting relayed to them by one of the three participants.

'Forcefully demanded crackdown on corruption' is in no way a direct quote - your English is good enough to realize that phrase is in the third person narrative, and someone elses opinion of what Kiayani said and how he said it. Again, given three participants at the meeting, this account would be based on how people interpreted the event.

There is nothing here that supports any of your contentions of 'Kiyani did this to gain power' or that he threatened the GoP. You are throwing about unsubstantiated speculation based on rumors.

 

[Coltsfan]

Who the **** are you to come out and preach us Pakistanis what should or should not do. Why don't you mind your own business. If we were to hand over our country to army, its again our business and none of your concern. So don't poke your nose where it doesn't belong and pretend to be Mr.know all.

Sad to see "elite members" resort to name calling, I guess you had to resort since you couldn't come up with any thing else.


Get back to me if you got anything sensible to say

 

[Spring Onion]

Just for the record is it within the law in Pak for the Army Chief to such demands on the Govt ?

Just for the record it is also NOT within the law in Pak for the elected PM and President to seeks Army Chief's help to save their rule endangered by their ill-planned clash with judiciary.