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PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

What Most People Dont care is Air warfare is not some competition where you bring the faster car and will win its
series of calculated decisions to counter your enemy before they could Harm You the Simple Fact Which No one brings in their post is When Most PDF thumps their Chest That MKI has bigger rcs So it means it gone Straight Drop down from Sky

Hi,

So---why do you think that the U S is producing faster cars every 15--20 years---like the F15 and F 16---then F 18---then the F22---then the F 35---and then the 6th gen in test flights----.

So---what is happening in the U S---the leader in weapons technology---what makes them churn out " Faster cars " than before.
 
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Well---like everything else---it started with incompetence at the top during the 1971 war----. The afghan war brought an opportune moment for the Pakistan air force---sanctions were off---and PAF had the option to buy different aircraft----. Being a French aircraft dominant air force---it should have by default stayed with the French---goinf rom Mirage 3/5 to Mirage F1 and then Mirage 2000.

But during the war---it got the carrot dangled in front of it--the fabled F16----. On the other side was the Mirage 2000---on a given day each aircraft could outdo the other. The PAF BLUNDERED into buying the F16---and it left the gate open for its arch enemy to buy the supposedly number 2 aircraft.
Pakistan's acquisition had lesser bearing on IAF, Dassualt/Breguet has been a traditional partner for India: read Mystère IV, Ouragan, SEPECAT Jaguar.


Indian air force was woefully equipped at that time---it only had Russian aircraft as its primary fighter aircraft.
And, Mig29's, the first international customers of it btw were at par with F16's at the given tme


PAF thru its blunder---allowed the indian air force to purchase the Mirage 2000---and gave the enemy parity in the battlefield in the skies----.

Allowed?
 
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So as a fix - My thoughts on non-traditional options (things not relating to a bigger air-force, nuclear missiles, etc) to improve and update Pakistan's defense capabilities and posture.

Pakistan can't match India pound for pound, but it doesn't have to. What Pakistan needs is to make India hurt enough that war would be catastrophic for both sides - ultimately this is achieved through both sides nuclear arsenals, but on conventional terms Pakistan has options too. Let's explore them:

1. Spread critical infrastructure and C4I capabilities over a wide geographic area to prevent a "decapitation strike" from severing the entire command structure instantaneously. Perhaps utilize deep or hardened command structures:

2. Invest greater numbers in mobile counter-air and counter-missile defenses. HQ-9 provides both capabilities in a single platform, but like S-300 it's reported to be less suited for counter-missile duties.

HQ-9 is also resistant to electronic injections and attacks, and with India building up its electronic warfare capabilities, this is a plus for Pakistan.

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3. Speaking of electronic warfare, cyber defenses can be used for offensive and defense purposes too. No only do strong cyber defense protect one's own info, but they can be used to gather intel on a enemy nation - as the US, Russia and China have found out, there aren't any air-tight systems. Invest in cyber warfare to negatively effect Indian battle-planning, intercept their communications, steal sensitive info and if necessary affect civilian infrastructure too:

Few of the world's power grids are capable of withstanding a military-strength cyber attack.
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4. For naval defense Pakistan needs to invest greater assets in counter-submarine warfare - what better way to keep Indian ships honest then by investing in your own submarines?

Considering Pakistan is most concerned with the regional waters around its shores, nuclear submarines don't make too much sense, but SSKs do. Already Pakistan is addressing this concern via the acquisition of several S20 submarines, but a few more - 4 perhaps, would improve Pakistan's operational capabilities by allowing for more ships to be at sea at any one time.

India's counter submarine capabilities are good, but they aren't perfect.

KILO_CLASS_SUBMARINES.jpg


Negotiate with China for 2-3 Y-8Q - they would be Pakistan's P-8I.

y-8q_731.jpg


5. Forget about ICBMs:

Should we opt for the ICBM?

Invest in SLVs (Space Launch Vehicle). Not only does this open up space communications to Pakistan, but it also opens up intelligence gathering capabilities.

Does Pakistan know where India's naval assets are all the time? How about their command structures? Their mobile AA missiles? Tank formations? No it doesn't, but investing in space intel capabilities open this avenue up for Pakistan and allows Pakistan to monitor Indian military movement, communications and infrastructure .

*if anything nuclear deterrence actually increases the potential for conflict, just not directly. Instead, via the Stability-Instability Paradox, the potential for proxy conflict goes up:

The stability–instability paradox is an international relations theory regarding the effect of nuclear weapons and mutually assured destruction. It states that when two countries each have nuclear weapons, the probability of a direct war between them greatly decreases, but the probability of minor or indirect conflicts between them increases. This occurs because rational actors want to avoid nuclear wars, and thus they neither start major conflicts nor allow minor conflicts to escalate into major conflicts—thus making it safe to engage in minor conflicts. For instance, during the Cold War the United States and the Soviet Union never engaged each other in warfare, but fought proxy wars in Korea,Vietnam, Angola, the Middle East, Nicaragua and Afghanistan and spent substantial amounts of money and manpower on gaining relative influence over the third world.

Stability–instability paradox

6. India is stepping up its own space capabilities and Pakistan needs a counter. Even if you can't destroy them via ASAT or electronic warfare, you can still negatively affect them using some ground-based methods. One such method is "blinding lasers" to interfere with electro-optical satellites or damage critical electronics on remote sensing satellites.

This is a satellite spotting laser. Larger, more powerful lasers can damage satellites.

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7. Cost is going to be a problem for any large military facing a large foe that is gaining in sophistication. One recourse is to opt for unmanned areal and naval assets. Pakistan already has its Burraq drone for counter-land duties, and perhaps a sea-surveillance/counter-shipping version can be worked out too, but Pakistan - facing an increasing submarine threat from India, can offset the cost of improving its own submarine capability (should that be too costly) by opting for UUVs to patrol and monitor Pakistani waters.

Suicide UUVs can be used as cost-effective anti-submarine weapons should they detect a target.

These are easily deploy-able from existing ships and are a cost effective solution.

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8. I know, I know, "how's Pakistan going to pay for it?"

  • that wasn't really the point of this post. These are real world options, but a hypothetical set of impact recommendations that would make a difference.
  • But that doesn't mean Pakistan is left stranded either. It has options.
Pakistan's defense doctrine right now is predicated on maintaining a nuclear deterrence to deter Indian aggression or retaliatory action. Keep this! Maintain a minimum credible deterrence, and once the economy improves, shift military spending into high gear. It takes work, the world is ill right now, but Pakistan is making progress. Reforms such as revising the tax code and tax enforcement must be mandated. Reform helps an economy grow and be more resilient to future shocks.

CPEC and China provide Pakistan with an important life-line.

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These are my thoughts on defense options. I understand they might not all be feasible or affordable, they aren't for most nations, but these option can provide Pakistan with an updated deterrence that brings it into the 21st century and positions Pakistan for future success.

Space, cyber warfare, sub-surface warfare, drones, these are option Pakistan can't afford not to invest in!

@Armstrong @Oscar @MastanKhan @Gufi @Indus Falcon - thoughts? Counter proposals?


Hi,

There is absolutely no doubt that it is an excellent post----. If the two opponents were well educated and thought with reason----some of these weapons with the subtle use and others with their obvious strike capability would put a stop to chest thumping.

But when the public on both the sides is illiterate----you simply cannot rely on subtlety---. For that reason you ought to have something that is visible and matches the opponents main strike machine---it used to be the nuc retaliation----but its constant verbal usage has worn down the perceived threat.

When the enemy gets over the fear---it will retaliate---. Then we need something to retaliate back staying with the conventional weapons.
 
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Hi,

So---why do you think that the U S is producing faster cars every 15--20 years---like the F15 and F 16---then F 18---then the F22---then the F 35---and then the 6th gen in test flights----.

So---what is happening in the U S---the leader in weapons technology---what makes them churn out " Faster cars " than before.
you don't Put honda against lambo ? Do you in late 60 70 and even 80 there multiple were projects F 14 , 15 , 18 , 16 , etc going at the same time now they are not doing that they are trying to evolve one or two projects For 5th gen you have f22 and on cheaper end you have f 35 and till 6th gen becomes reality
 
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Pakistan knows that India had never attacked in past

and Indai will never attack in future...

Pakistan don't need any weapon... If Pakistan dismatnle its army and ISI, Pakistan will be better place...
 
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you don't Put honda against lambo ?

Thank you---that is what I have been saying---.

You can also put some speed bumps on the road---.

Pakistan knows that India had never attacked in past

and Indai will never attack in future...

Pakistan don't need any weapon... If Pakistan dismatnle its army and ISI, Pakistan will be better place...


Well---then Afghanistan would want to conquer us---.
 
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Maybe here's solutions to cancel all the projects.

Save money until we should reach $1 Trillion Dollars in our economy first, it is our own stupidity because we never think in ahead of times, India does, then Pakistan does, we are all depending on India's progress, we then do act with no money or very limited budgets or no investments.

Let's achieve $ 1 Trillion again, India definitely won the war on Economy issues, Pakistan ?
 
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It sort of blew over after having a few of these moments.
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Hi,

I was wondering at something nagging in my brains----and now I know what it is----.

See---you write what you did---because you might have to go back ad work for them again----. I don't---I am almost retired----.

Other than that---only and active service personal would post something like you did----do you work for them---.
 
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Maybe here's solutions to cancel all the projects.

Save money until we should reach $1 Trillion Dollars in our economy first, it is our own stupidity because we never think in ahead of times, India does, then Pakistan does, we are all depending on India's progress, we then do act with no money or very limited budgets or no investments.

Let's achieve $ 1 Trillion again, India definitely won the war on Economy issues, Pakistan ?


With Armed forces in control , U can never reach good economy.. The politicians should take control of nation. And keep the military at there place...

In civilized world every one has there place.. Problem comes when one tries to encroach other domain.... In Pakistan , Army always try to fit in Executive and Judiciary shoes...
 
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With Armed forces in control , U can never reach good economy.. The politicians should take control of nation. And keep the military at there place...

In civilized world every one has there place.. Problem comes when one tries to encroach other domain.... In Pakistan , Army always try to fit in Executive and Judiciary shoes...

@ZooZoo, yeah we heard that many times, nothing new. Do you mind to leave us alone, it is only Pakistanis to discuss this topic properly here.
 
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Being Defensive does not mean U dnt have Offensive plans/capabilities and i dont think that PAF's doctrine is anymore totally defensive. Even in 1965 and 1971 we had launched successful cross border attacks when needed. This can not happen if U havent trained on the basis of doctrine. Our Hi Mark exercises are one such mix of offensive and defensive plans. So its mainly defensive but shifts towards offensive when needed.
 
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I don't think being 100% defensive is an option for PAF and they probably know it better than anybody. If somebody believes that I will just defend my air-space and nothing else he will be in for a surprise pretty fast
 
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I am not agreed with you because you are an idiot person. Used cars dealer thinking yourself a think tank. Foolishness idiocy at its best. Last time you bark about Mr. Rashid Minhas now you are barking against our armed forces. They are more capable to plan defense requirements. Just stop posting and clean old cars for buyers. A cheap person can think like that.
We all have our own opinions regarding various subject. That's the beauty of this forum, everyone gets to share his or her point of view. We may agree with their point of view or we may not, but that's how a civilized debate runs. As for personal taunts, there is no room for any of that in such a forum. If your behavior resembles your post i would advise you to proceed with extreme caution. Farthermost, please behave like a gentleman.
 
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