PAF vs. IAF Analysis- Air Combat Over the Subcontinent

[blain2]

Very true, infact my source has admitted that he and his buddies were sort of 'jolted awake' during the briefing on PAF tactics by the israeli pilots. He says he had never thought that the pakis could think up such radically different stuff.

He adds that the course ended on a very hilarious note when one of the israeli pilots recited the below joke ( in fluent Punjabi ! ??):

"What the Pakistanis know, the arabs know. What the arabs know, the israelis know. What the israelis know, the americans know. And what the Americans know, George Bush shares with the rest of the world!"

Not sure when and under what circumstances this "briefing" took place, but rest assured that Indian Air Force knows PAF tactics way better than the IDFAF. We have fought 3 wars with the IAF. That goes for something. IDFAF does not know as much as IAF would.

 

[blain2]

agreed a tricky business but still doable I guess ..... but in case of SARH (example R-27R used by IAF) the same can be achieved (again you are right theoretically as only real war will prove validity)

SARH is old technology. This is what the first generation BVRAAM like AIM-7 Sparrow used. The biggest problem was that even slight maneuvering by the other aircraft ended up with the BVRAAM going off track.
Now the name of the game is Active homing with tracking. However with this new capability, the ECM capabilities on the aircraft have also become much better thanks to early warning with RWR/MAWS and ECM equipment.

actually dense engagements will not be a likely scenario due to need for high tempo of ops in initial hours of conflict in order to establish/deny air superiority. with the recognition of the air-land battle concept for its value, the same has gained more prominence. the emulation of the same was evident in Op. Chengiz Khan of 1971 by PAF. As for ECMs, the same need the AC to be airborne to engage, but with airspace depth of pakistan being about 500 or so kms, any AC is automatically bound to be noted and plotted by any AWAC and necessary action taken for the same. So probability of surprise is lost. Also the theoretical valuations for the BARS has been done and validated in wargames over in India. So am quite confident.

In my opinion, all past wars have seen fairly dense air combat scenarios especially during the initial phases of the hostilities. If the idea is to whittle down Pakistani air defences to attain air superiority for the IA to do what it needs to on the ground then IAF will have to mix it up with the PAF up and close.

The AEW capability is a double-edged sword. It will work the same both ways. The only difference now as compared to pre-AEW days is that the threshold for detecting and reacting against each other would be much lower now due to extended ranges afforded to snoop over the horizon. Instead of giving the air defence planners 5-15 minutes to respond to an infraction or attack, now the early warning would mean that both sides are limited in terms of the range of actions they can consider to achieve surprise. So while neither side will get surprised, planning operations would also be much more difficult over each others airspace.

Also while MKI's BARS radar has pretty decent range, it has not been used againt ECM equipment that we are using or that of any other western airforce because when MKIs have participated, they have done so using training frequencies and even the radar have not been used to emit at extended ranges. Also the extensive range of the MKI radar is fine, but in the Indo-Pakistan environment with considerable AEW presence on both sides, it will be a redundant capability at least in the role of the AEW as you folks commonly tout it as being capable of. The Mig-31 has an amazing range on its AI radar, however that radar and its BVR capability is not that big of a threat considering the type of jamming that AEW platforms can perform now and also due to the fact that any AEW platform flying will not only outrange the BARS, but it will also have much more powerful jammers available than what a fighter aircraft can muster.

 

[Pk_Thunder]

Guys this is a PAF vs IAF Analysis thread,every one visit here to gain some knowledge regarding both the airforces.we have read so many informative posts from our expert seniors here therefore I would suggest u both,post something constructive or stay away from posting here if cant add something important because this will ruin the quality of this thead.thx

 

[RedBaron]

SARH is old technology. This is what the first generation BVRAAM like AIM-7 Sparrow used. The biggest problem was that even slight maneuvering by the other aircraft ended up with the BVRAAM going off track.
Now the name of the game is Active homing with tracking. However with this new capability, the ECM capabilities on the aircraft have also become much better thanks to early warning with RWR/MAWS and ECM equipment.
...

An interesting air-battle scenario would be a swarm of Flankers (or even Bisons) with AA-12/AESA radar/Israeli jammers encountering Vipers with AMRAAMs with its radars and jammers. Add another variable: both sides data-linked into respective AWACS grid (Phalcon/Ereiye) and THEIR jammers and all predictions truly go out of the window...this would be the most sophisticated direct confrontation between two enemy air-forces in history...

On a slightly different note, I would like to discuss air-to-surface smart bombs and potential impact in a future battle scenario (and here I'm assuming Ind/Pak DON'T go at each other's throats in the next 12 months). JDAMs will probably play a major role for PAF fighters attacking IAF ground assets. I believe these are relatively cheap (~$20K a pop) and would be widely used by PAF in event of a conflict. What do other members think?
An interesting USAF article on JDAMs: JDAM continues to be warfighter's weapon of choice

I believe IAF bought some Paveway-IIs from US back in 90's and is negotiating licensed production, but I don't know whether it has been successful:
Procurement: India Builds Paveway-II Dual Mode GPS/Laser Guided Bombs

These smart bombs could be used by each side against enemy FOBs. Overall, IMO the smart-weapons space is evolving rapidly and I have a feeling both Ind/Pak are betting big in this area as well.

 

[fatman17]

Instead of giving the air defence planners 5-15 minutes to respond to an infraction or attack, now the early warning would mean that both sides are limited in terms of the range of actions they can consider to achieve.

this will also be true for when the PAF and IAF "mix-it-up" so to speak. past dog-fights would take say ~30-45 seconds (1v1) but now they would be less than 15 seconds, because of the hi-tech a2a.

 

[fatman17]

actually X_man its a very well documented fact that apart from the initial raids ..... and they were unsuccessful apart from damaging the runways for a few hours ......

and as for white washing the historical fact, its this .... 1965 PAF and 1971 IAF ..... no questions about it .....

as for achievement of air superiority by IAF, PAF may doubt it and challenge the claim ... but IAF was regularly launching air raids with impunity over Karachi, Lahore, Sui fields etc etc ..... and PAF was mainly left to defensive ops apart from a few daring attacks ......

i would be grateful if you could kindly go through this site

Indo-Pakistan War of Independence

we dont rely much on indian sponsored sites for obvious reasons. i personally dont believe in pakistan sponsored sites for similar reasons of bias. so you can keep pushing your viewpoint all you want and will not get much in return.

cheers!

 

[valkyr]

There is some rumor of IAF having completed the induction of Vympel R-77 RVV-AE(?) as also been given license for production locally.

It puportedly also has an active IR seeker in the terminal course in addition to the existing features of both active and passive homing radar.

with this background there maybe considerable improvement in chances of detecing a hostile AC.

Any basis for this?

 

[valkyr]

Blain

I think with the advent of AMRAAMSKI and further development I guess ECMs are also getting into redundancy now ..... but not very sure about it ..... what I know of this and here I think I can definitely seek corrections/guidance from Muradk and X_man and yourself, that with the active homing (initiated in 20 km distance from target designate by the specified missile) even upon the deployment of ECMs by targetted AC, the shift to passive mode takes place which seeks the source of these jammers and directs the missile to target ..... and incase and IR seeker has been integrated into the missile for the terminal guidance, then its nearly about 90% kill......

 

[shehbazi2001]

Yes its true.

Jamnagar Air Base: 12 December 1971, 1402 hours: Two MiG-21FLs at the ORP (Operational Readiness Platform) are scrambled to set up a CAP (Combat Air Patrol) at 3 km (10,000 feet) over the airfield. Minutes earlier, Mobile Observation Posts along the Saurashtra sea coast had reported two bandits flying low, crossing the coast line in the general direction of Jamnagar, with its vital air base. Shortly, the airfield is under attack, the bandits (Now identified as F-104A Starfighters) carrying out a front gun attack on aircraft parked near the runway 24/06 dumbbell (which were decoys). The second F-104, spotting the MiG-21s turns off and heads north. The lead F-104 continues at high speed along the runway but as he exits, one of the MiG-21s dives down and positions himself behind, but still above, the F-104, allowing the air defence guns to continue firing. The F-104 clears land, is over the sea, continuing at heading 2400, maintaining very low level and high speed. The MiG-21 drops down behind, to about 100 feet, at 1200 km/hr with full afterburner.
An air-to-air missile (K-13) is launched from the MiG-21 but the F-104 is taking evasive measures, firing flares to misguide the heat seeking missile and the K-13 is deflected away from the intended target. The MiG-21 pilot now selects 'guns' but as he is closing in, the F-104 suddenly pulls sharp to his right in a desperate manoeuvre, perhaps to throw off a second missile. The MiG-21 now rapidly closes distance and from 300 meters, fires three sharp bursts with the GSh-23 cannon at the F-104 which is immediately stricken, pulling up momentarily as it starts to flame and the pilot ejects. The MiG-21 goes fast past and pulls up, its pilot turning around to see the parachute has deployed, the F-104 pilot falling slowly under a bright orange canopy into the Gulf of Kutch a shark infested sea. The MiG-21 pilot circles the engagement area, calls up base to dispatch a rescue launch to the exact spot and them returns back to base.
Wg. Cdr. M.E. Middlecoat SJ, TBT. God bless his Soul he was a good friend and a teacher.

The article mentions that F-104 released flares to evade K-13 missile
fired by Mig-21FL of B.B.Soni.

This is very very important sentence.

When the USAF itself started using flares around 1970 in Vietnam, then it seems almost impossible that PAF F-104A be capable of deploying flares in 1971.

Well Beyond Vulcan's Imagination. - Free Online Library

Pakistan obtained initial 12 F-104s around 1961 and after 1965 there was an arms embargo on Pakistan and F-104 upgrade seems unlikely.

I must mention that illumination flares (called ground illumination flares) are not the same as infrared countermeasure decoy flares used to evade a heat-seeking missile.

These illumination flares were used for ground attack at night when air to ground radar was not sufficiently developped.

Yes later on in 1980s, F-104G and Italian F-104S did carry flares. chaff and flare dispenser was fitted to the rear fuselage near the nozzle, as shown in link below of a German Starfighter,

http://www.916-starfighter.de/Large/2433.htm

also an Italian Starfighter, carrying flare dispenser near the nozzle in aft fuselage

Photos: Fiat F-104G Starfighter Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net

If we assume that PAF fighters carried flares in 1971, then it was a tremendous techological advantage of PAF over IAF and then I think the performance of PAF was not commensurate with its capabilities or its potential to win air battles.

At least I dont know of a single event in which an Indian fighter evaded a Sidewinder from PAF fighter using flares.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Valkyr has nothing better to do than to troll on forums. This is his fourth ID being banned on this forum.

Member Tinamou (banned - multiple ID's) The IP Address is: 122.162.38.3
The host name is: ABTS-North-Dynamic-003.38.162.122.airtelbroadband.in

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And ... drum roll....

Member valkyr --- The IP Address is: 122.162.39.244
The host name is: ABTS-North-Dynamic-244.39.162.122.airtelbroadband.in

I recognized his writing style right away. Banned again.

His posts stand discredited.

 

[RedBaron]

Valkyr has nothing better to do than to troll on forums. This is his fourth ID being banned on this forum.
...
I recognized his writing style right away. Banned again.

His posts stand discredited.

Poor kid, his parents should have taught him to respect others.

 

[Indicom]

There is some rumor of IAF having completed the induction of Vympel R-77 RVV-AE(?) as also been given license for production locally.

It puportedly also has an active IR seeker in the terminal course in addition to the existing features of both active and passive homing radar.

with this background there maybe considerable improvement in chances of detecing a hostile AC.

Any basis for this?

That's a fact,if u notice u'll see all the airsuperiority fighters barring the Mirage2000 in IAF carries the RVVAE.The active seeker starts guiding from the midcourse after some initial datalink from the AC after the launch,so it is even deadlier than u think.

 

[Zob]

shabazzi 2001 really good post...i have to say because i took the muradk post as legitimate and was shocked!!

 

[ahmeddsid]

I dont get it, did Pakistan operate countermeasures in 71?

 

[Zob]

mr.ahmed sid....i don't understand what is there not to get...it is clear pakistan did not posses the technology of counter measures infact no other country did back then!! however given the biasness of the indian sources as well as pakistani sources they always show the "enemy" as having all advantages and being defeated...a typical david and goliath type of battle!!! i doubt that this ever even happened!! this incident i never heard of it except from BHARAT RAKSHAK!!