PAF victories against Israeli Air Force, kept secret for 25 years - Air Commodore (r) Khalid Chishti

[Baibars_1260]

Exactly. When threatened. Iraq and Syria are at war with us. Pakistan has never threatened us, nor did we threaten them. It's irrelevant to us.

✌Shalom and peace. We have no reason to threaten each other

Pakistan is too far a way in a sense of overall relevance, our interests don't collide with Pakistan's interests.
Aitstrike wise, it's in range, sort of.

Generally agree. Except that your weapons sales to India are of concern to us.

Destroying all Pakistani nuclear weapons today, on Pakistani ground, is not within our capabilities.

Perhaps not all nuclear assets, but maybe some... I stand by my assessment of Israel's excellent logistics capabilities.

Destroying the Pakistani nuclear program back then, before you got your first nukes , probably was. However Israel had no such interest, maybe India had.

That was my question. In the interest of a deeper military relationship with India why didn't Israel help India eliminate the nuclear threat.

Will answer the question for you:

While India is a valuable arms customer, Israel doesn't view India as a dependable military ally, and doesn't expect India to fight on its behalf in Iraq, or Syria or even against Iran. India's primary enemy is Pakistan, and Israel sees no point in antagonizing Pakistan and adding one more state to it's list of enemies.

I also believe you won't use a nuclear attack that would kill millions of Israeli and Palestinian Muslims, destroy Muslim holy sites. This would negate the whole reason your government is "hostile" to ours,which is the Palestinians.

You are correct. Pakistan will never instigate a first strike against Israel for precisely the reasons you spelled out. But Pakistanis don't hate Jewish people or wish their destruction. We have a common reason why our nations came into existence. Both our nations were intended as a homeland and refuge from persecution for our peoples.
In a hypothetical scenario, if an unhinged government comes to power in Israel, which actively joins a war with India against Pakistan, a war which Pakistan will certainly loose in the conventional mode, then it is an entirely different matter.
Collateral damage to Muslim populations or "holy" sites is not a limiting factor. War gaming estimates with India about 75 % of India's Muslim population will be wiped out. All the Muslim heritage monuments and sites of pilgrimage to the shrines of Muslim Sufi saints will be destroyed.

Israeli pilots fly only under the Israeli air force. If you think we fly in Indian jets you're wrong.

Perhaps ...
Shalom, we are bonded by the common word of Abraham, and will refer you to this reference from our scriptures.
Live in peace as willed by G_d.

 

[Beny Karachun]

Generally agree. Except that your weapons sales to India are of concern to us.

Weapons are business you know. Russia, China, many European nations sell weapons to our enemies. Russian weapons killed the most Israeli lives out of every other weapon, yet Israel still is on good terms with Russia.

Perhaps not all nuclear assets, but maybe some... I stand by my assessment of Israel's excellent logistics capabilities.

Destroying some is useless, if even a single nuke hits our country in a reaction to our airstrike on nuclear assets, the whole operation wasn't worth it.
I was talking under the assumption Israel will be able to hit some, but not all, which isn't enough.

That was my question. In the interest of a deeper military relationship with India why didn't Israel help India eliminate the nuclear threat.

Will answer the question for you:

While India is a valuable arms customer, Israel doesn't view India as a dependable military ally, and doesn't expect India to fight on its behalf in Iraq, or Syria or even against Iran. India's primary enemy is Pakistan, and Israel sees no point in antagonizing Pakistan and adding one more state to it's list of enemies.

Because even if it would benefit our relationship, it would come at a cost, with tons of risks.

Israel doesn't view anyone as a dependable military ally in the sense that they would defend us actively, we fight our own wars.

You are correct. Pakistan will never instigate a first strike against Israel for precisely the reasons you spelled out. But Pakistanis don't hate Jewish people or wish their destruction. We have a common reason why our nations came into existence. Both our nations were intended as a homeland and refuge from persecution for our peoples.
In a hypothetical scenario, if an unhinged government comes to power in Israel, which actively joins a war with India against Pakistan, a war which Pakistan will certainly loose in the conventional mode, then it is an entirely different matter.
Collateral damage to Muslim populations or "holy" sites is not a limiting factor. War gaming estimates with India about 75 % of India's Muslim population will be wiped out. All the Muslim heritage monuments and sites of pilgrimage to the shrines of Muslim Sufi saints will be destroyed.

Yes, I know you won't, you were technically able to do that for years and you didn't, unlike certain nations that will nuke Israel as soon as they're able to, no matter the cost.

Israel doesn't enter wars it wasn't forced to enter. Let alone against a nuclear power 3,000 kilometers away from us. We don't want wars, 18 year old kids dying for stupidity that can be avoided if it wasn't for the human ego and mutual distrust. Nothing you can do about it though.

Perhaps ...
Shalom, we are bonded by the common word of Abraham, and will refer you to this reference from our scriptures.
Live in peace as willed by G_d.

Peace bro

 

[Bouncer]

27.5:1 ratio would be impressive in any way you would like to divide it, basically unachievable by any air force.

The point is: Israel cannot sustain this ratio and that is a bad sign no matter how you like to divide it.

No offence, seems like you are arguing just for the sake of it. Israel has the numbers and land to show for its superiority not matter how you put it.

 

[Raider 21]

Destroying all Pakistani nuclear weapons today, on Pakistani ground, is not within our capabilities.

Destroying the Pakistani nuclear program back then, before you got your first nukes , probably was. However Israel had no such interest, maybe India had.

My dad had it recorded in his flying logbook, while on his first tour as an operational fighter pilot with No. 15 squadron. Operation Thunderbolt is what's written on that entry. All of PAF were scrambled in minutes after learning Israeli aircraft were heading towards Pakistan. I can't recall the year as I read it a long time ago but it was probably 1984.

 

[Beny Karachun]

My dad had it recorded in his flying logbook, while on his first tour as an operational fighter pilot with No. 15 squadron. Operation Thunderbolt is what's written on that entry. All of PAF were scrambled in minutes after learning Israeli aircraft were heading towards Pakistan. I can't recall the year as I read it a long time ago but it was probably 1984.

Maybe it was a false alarm.

 

[Waiting]

My dad had it recorded in his flying logbook, while on his first tour as an operational fighter pilot with No. 15 squadron. Operation Thunderbolt is what's written on that entry. All of PAF were scrambled in minutes after learning Israeli aircraft were heading towards Pakistan. I can't recall the year as I read it a long time ago but it was probably 1984.

Yes , I myself witnessed the mirages, on CAP. Over Pindi , islamabad

 

[The SC]

All of those 687 Arab jets were taken out in air to air combat, there are hundreds more taken out on the ground and by air defenses.

Any sources or just your wet dreams??
We all know that just in 1973 Egypt shot down around 300 Usraeli fighter jets.. so go lie somewhere else..

 

[Raider 21]

Maybe it was a false alarm.

No it wasn't. They are professionals. They take threats seriously especially when fighters, attackers and tankers are flying over Middle Eastern airspace inbound for Pakistan. It was based on a last minute intelligence report.

All PAF ADA fighter pilots were up in the air within 15 minutes around the country. The Israeli aircraft turned back having learned all of Pakistan Air Force was on alert.

 

[Gripen9]

So why are we going on and on with this Zio?

 

[Beny Karachun]

Any sources or just your wet dreams??
We all know that just in 1973 Egypt shot down around 300 Usraeli fighter jets.. so go lie somewhere else..

I already mentioned the sources. You're just jealous.

What do you mean Israel can't sustain such a ratio? This ratio has been the result of 72 years of conflict already.

Source is in Hebrew

אתר חיל-האוויר

Post–World War II air-to-air combat losses - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You can add up the numbers here, add 114 Arab jets that were shot down in between the wars, and divide by the Israeli jets that got shot down. You'll end up with the same result.

102 Israeli jets. 300 would be 3/4 of our airforce, just shot down by Egypt? Without even Syria? That would mean Israel had lost even more than 3/4 including Syria.

No it wasn't. They are professionals. They take threats seriously especially when fighters, attackers and tankers are flying over Middle Eastern airspace inbound for Pakistan. It was based on a last minute intelligence report.

All PAF ADA fighter pilots were up in the air within 15 minutes around the country. The Israeli aircraft turned back having learned all of Pakistan Air Force was on alert.

Professionals or not, false alarms always happen.

Even if it is true, it's totally logical to cancel a surpise attack once a nation's entire air force is in the air because it wasn't a surprise anymore.


However I doubt any Israeli jets flew to strike Pakistani targets. We have our own wars.

 

[Raider 21]

I already mentioned the sources. You're just jealous.



102 Israeli jets. 300 would be 3/4 of our airforce, just shot down by Egypt? Without even Syria? That would mean Israel had lost even more than 3/4 including Syria.

Professionals or not, false alarms always happen.

Even if it is true, it's totally logical to cancel a surpise attack once a nation's entire air force is in the air because it wasn't a surprise anymore.


However I doubt any Israeli jets flew to strike Pakistani targets. We have our own wars.

I understand your doubts. You may not have anyone in connections with the IDF/AF circle at the time when they were involved with that mission.

 

[Windjammer]

Maybe it was a false alarm.

When flying from Israel to say India, the Israeli aircraft had to fly near or over several neighbouring Muslim countries some of which were monitoring the unusual activity, at least one of those countries alerted Pakistan. Besides after Pakistan conveyed it's warnings through major Western Capitals, the Israeli Ambassador in Washington openly addressed his Pakistani counterpart and said that any issues or misunderstandings should be mutually discussed between the two countries alleging that the IDFAF aircraft were in India for just an exercise.

 

[Reichmarshal]

posting extracts and the link of just one article written by one of ur own:

The IAF was rendered ineffectual in the 1973 October War by Egyptian and Syrian Surface-to-Air Missiles (SAMs). in 73 the advancing arab forces were covered by mobile SAM-6 missiles, shoulder-fired SAM-7 missiles, and radar-guided antiaircraft guns (Safran 1977, 136). It is only when arabs became overconfident and left the cover of the sams that Israel could do anything about it.
During the 73 war, the iaf lost 102 jet fighters and seven helicopters. Fifty-three aircrew members were killed and forty-four were captured’ (Brun 2011, 155-156).

Israeli Air Power 1973-1982: How Did the Israeli Air Force Recover after the October War?

The IAF was able to rehabilitate itself due to technological enhancements and by restoring its image as the guardian of the Jewish state.

www.e-ir.info

.

As for ur refusal to believe that Israel was not being aided by the us:

Israeli government told Washington, ‘if you don’t want to help us in a critical situation […] we will use our nuclear bombs’ (cited in Cobban 1988, 425). Likewise, Mark Gaffney states that the Israeli Ambassador to the U.S, Simha Dinitz, threatened “very serious conclusions” if there was not an immediate airlift of supplies (Gaffney 1989, 147) The entirety of Seymor Hersh’s The Samson Option is also dedicated to advancing this thesis (Hersh 1993). Whilst never corroborated by Kissinger, such an argument would correlate with his autobiography (Kissinger 1982, 491-493). It was only after a secret meeting with Dinitz, that America provided CH-53 helicopters, A-4E components, as well as 36 F-4Es to Israel (Pietrucha 2010, 58). These planes entered service immediately, and would give the IAF a distinct technological advantage over its rivals

 

[Beny Karachun]

When flying from Israel to say India, the Israeli aircraft had to fly near or over several neighbouring Muslim countries some of which were monitoring the unusual activity, at least one of those countries alerted Pakistan. Besides after Pakistan conveyed it's warnings through major Western Capitals, the Israeli Ambassador in Washington openly addressed his Pakistani counterpart and said that any issues or misunderstandings should be mutually discussed between the two countries alleging that the IDFAF aircraft were in India for just an exercise.

I understand your doubts. You may not have anyone in connections with the IDF/AF circle at the time when they were involved with that mission.

I definitely don't have any connections from the time lol.
What I'm trying to say, that even if Israel did plan to carry out a strike, it would be logical to cancel it once a country is on alert for a strike.

America provided CH-53 helicopters, A-4E components, as well as 36 F-4Es to Israel (Pietrucha 2010, 58). These planes entered service immediately, and would give the IAF a distinct technological advantage over its rivals

Definitely not. Arab MiG-21s were not considered inferior to the F-4, and those 36 jets were a tiny amount compared to the amount of Arab jets.

 

[The SC]

I already mentioned the sources. You're just jealous.



102 Israeli jets. 300 would be 3/4 of our airforce, just shot down by Egypt? Without even Syria? That would mean Israel had lost even more than 3/4 including Syria.

Professionals or not, false alarms always happen.

Even if it is true, it's totally logical to cancel a surpise attack once a nation's entire air force is in the air because it wasn't a surprise anymore.


However I doubt any Israeli jets flew to strike Pakistani targets. We have our own wars.

Your posts are full of lies ..we had someone like you here before and all this was debated here before.. and he lost his credibility big time.. as you will too..